Gift of Reason ritual

Hi everyone,
I have a question about Gift of Reason. Each time it is cast, it will raise the relevant characteristic by 1 point, up to a maximum specified by the spell.

My question is this, can a single casting raise it by more than one point at a time, up-to the same maximum? i.e adding magnitudes to the ritual to boost the effect.

The normal spell in the core book is this...
Gift of Reason
CrMe 35
R: Touch, D:Momentary, T:Individual
Permanently increase the target's Intelligence by 1 point, to no higher than 0
(base 30, +1 Touch

Can we alter it to this?

Gift of Reason
CrMe 45
R: Touch, D:Momentary, T:Individual
Permanently increase the target's Intelligence by 3 points, to no higher than 0
(base 30, +1 Touch, +2 added effect)

Which then leads to this....

Gift of Reason
CrMe 70
R: Touch, D:Momentary, T:Individual
Permanently increase the target's Intelligence by 3 points, to no higher than 5
(base 55, +1 Touch, +2 added effect)

Which finally leads to this....

Gift of Reason
CrMe 80
R: Touch, D:Momentary, T:Group
Permanently increase the target's Intelligence by 3 points, to no higher than 5
(base 55, +1 Touch, +2 Group, +2 added effect)

I can see a group of magi working together in a lab to research this, then casting this on themselves using Wizards Communion.

Doing it this way removes the need for repeated castings, which will save them 2 warping points and 26 pawns of vis.

I don't have a problem with it, and I'm pretty sure it follows the rules properly. But some SG's may not like it.

Now, if these magi really want to save vis, why didn't they use T: Circle?

As far as i can tell, no, that's not possible. It's a topic that comes up fairly frequently in various forms.

also, why are you using T: Group in your examples? Why not simply use T: Circle?

EDIT: Fixed link.

I couldn't find anything about stacking them in there.

Stacking them is basically adding lower bases, right? So this level-80 ritual has three base effects: CrMe45, CrMe50, and CrMe55. That would usually work from CrMe55 and add two magnitudes, right? That's why I said it seemed like the method followed the rules properly.

Great, thank you. I will amend it to be Target: circle instead of Group.

I can image two versions of this spell - the first for grogs, companions, stupid apprentices and familiars (they get Int -3 if the had cunning), the second to raise them the rest of the way to +5.

I can't see any reason why there aren't lab-texts for this sort of thing. It seems that most covenants would want one

Gift of Reason
CrMe 55
R: Touch, D:Momentary, T:Circle
Permanently increase the target's Intelligence by 4 points, to no higher than 1
(base 35, +1 Touch, +3 added effect)
This spell inflicts a single point of warping.

Gift of Reason
CrMe 75
R: Touch, D:Momentary, T:Circle
Permanently increase the target's Intelligence by 4 points, to no higher than 5
(base 55, +1 Touch, +3 added effect)
This spell inflicts a single point of warping.

In my saga, the Magi arre busily inventing these spells, (hence the request a few days ago about a clarification on Wizard's Communion and the necessity of being sun duration for rituals).

I can't see any problems with it other than no-one has thought of it before, and so as the SG I have given my blessing.


Do realize, though, that you're not necessarily saving vis with this idea, though you likely will be and will definitely on average.

For instance, let's just take the case of any random person whose Intelligence is being raised 2 points at a time (one extra magnitude). If you started with a 4, you spend extra vis (13 vs 12) because you didn't need the extra magnitude. If you started with a 3, this is a big savings: 13 vs 24 (because you probably wouldn't invent a different version for every cap). If you started with a 2, you don't do nearly as well proportionally but still save, spending 26 instead of 36 (more likely to be slightly lower than in the prior case, but still unlikely). Etc.

The issue sometimes grows with the increase in bonus. Now let's look at 4 points at a time (three extra magnitudes). If you started with a 4, you spend extra vis: 15 instead of 12. If you started with a 3, you save some with 15 vs 24. If you started with a 2, you're doing better at 15 vs 36. If you started with a 1, this is ideal at 15 vs 48. If you started with a 0, then the savings drop to 30 vs 60 (likely a little less than 60 at this point).

And don't forget the issue of time. If your lab total is 90, you get the level-60 ritual in 2 seasons. If your lab total is 90, you get the level-75 ritual in 5 seasons. 3 seasons is probably worth about 18 vis of extraction or more to a good Creo magus. Still, a big savings overall, but a big investment to get to the big savings.

You make some good points about those levels and different cost savings.

In my experience, most grogs and companions have intelligence between -1 and +1. While for them, it would be better to have a ritual for +1 max, 2 steps. As we are only spending an extra 2 pawns of vis (and possibly an extra season on development), it is better to do a ritual for most eventualities. Especially for the familiars too.

The thing is that a general +1/magnitude is not nearly universal. CrCo bonuses for healing etc tend to be in steps of +1,+3,+6... with +3 for each successive magnitude, however even these are explicitly described rather than generalized as per magnitude. CrIg increases damage by +5 per magnitude, and there are, as noted, no guidelines for raising stats by more than one increment. On the other hand, most other spells don't stack- if I give +3 to recovery twice, it is still just +3 to recovery, not +6...

if you really want vis efficiency targey:boundry will certainly cover a lot of people...

I would still recommend against allowing a single casting to add several points. especially as easily as by adding a single magnitude.

Ya, that's why I'd replied about that SGs (and groups) may not like it. It doesn't violate the rules, but neither is it guaranteed by the rules. Some might not allow it at all. Some might allow it with more magnitudes. Some might allow it with single magnitude per +1. It follows the rules properly, but so do each of these other decisions.

I would allow the +1 magnitude per extra point of stat raised, as that's how stat raising for Vitkir in Hedge Magic works. Letting Hermetic magi do it that way doesn't seem unbalancing.

Yeah, Mannaz guidelines does it for dex, HM p133. Some other good stuff in there too.

Assuming that guidelines can be trivially carried over from other magical traditions is not something I can support.

I do not like the trivialisation of characteristics improvements, for a few reasons:

  • Yes it is cannon, but it is presented as spells known by the Cult of Heroes, a mystery cult. It does not look like this knowledge if widely available;
  • Making it easily available tend to standardised all mages: 50 years out of apprenticeship, any mage should be able to pay to improve his most significant characteristics and with a little bit of extra effort, they might even be able to have the formula re-invented for them to minimise the gain of warping;
  • Every Summer or at least Autumn covenants would hold every 5/10 years a group ritual to boost Strength and Stamina of its troops, soon all looking like clones of bodybuilders.

I would rather see characteristic improvement more like a Longevity ritual research, with the exception that the duration is momentary.
But that's only my preferences.

The guidelines and the originally published spell are in the core book. There is no need to delve into anything about the Cult of Heroes to find them. Of course, you may have to invent them yourself as you may well not be able to find lab texts.

It is not something to be done trivially but can be supported here.

In this case, both types of magic (Hermetic and runic) can perform the increase in question, and use exactly the same number (30) as the base guideline for increasing a statistic by 1 to a maximum of zero and also increase by 1 magnitude for each increase in the maximum level. Adding the extra guideline "increase by 1 magnitude for each extra +1 added" as used in runic magic seems like a sensible addition to Hermetic magic which keeps the maths consistent. As ever, the trade-off between research time, casting difficulty and amount of vis used means any individual wizard or covenant will have to make its own choice of what ritual to aim for.

If you are worried about everyone turning into identical clones with +5 in every characteristic, then it's possible you've given the covenant too much vis. Give people enough vis and they start casting lots of rituals, create untold magically-created wealth, instantly heal battle damage, and enchant so many lab enchantments they have ridiculous bonuses to their favourite lab activities. Keep vis supply tight enough and they go "maybe we should not bother creating the Strength ritual, it's more vis than we can afford and other things take priority".

In play, I have done characteristic increases two ways - one had a focus in self-transformation so had researched personal range rituals for himself, so took no warping and spent his vis share on this. The other had Increased Characteristics, Great Intelligence and Great Presence and having got his Mystery Cult Lore high enough proceeded to create his own rituals for Virtues he already had, but could take again. It was expensive in time but created useful scripts for other members of his cult.