Gift social effects under Aegis

[pierre-gay]

Hi,

reading the Corebook p.76 about social penalty for Gifted characters entering a foreign covenant, there is this paragraph:

These descriptions assume that the visitors announce themselves as Hermetic magi, and are not known to be hostile. They also assume that the guard room is outside the Aegis of the Hearth.

I wonder: does the last sentence implies that covenant grogs inside of the Aegis would be immune to a Gifted stranger's social effect if it was not given a token?

I couldn't find any confirmation elsewhere. What do you think?

Pierre

[silveroak]

I think the point is that a magus without a token inside the aegis is severely hampered, though I'm not sure how that would matter to social penalties from the gift...

[callen]

@pierre-gay

Hi,

reading the Corebook p.76 about social penalty for Gifted characters entering a foreign covenant, there is this paragraph:

These descriptions assume that the visitors announce themselves as Hermetic magi, and are not known to be hostile. They also assume that the guard room is outside the Aegis of the Hearth.

I wonder: does the last sentence implies that covenant grogs inside of the Aegis would be immune to a Gifted stranger's social effect if it was not given a token?

I couldn't find any confirmation elsewhere. What do you think?

Pierre

First, since training apprentices generally happens within the Aegis and you have to worry about the Gift's effects on teaching the apprentice, I would say the Aegis definitely doesn't not reduce those effects.

I see a few important reasons for that sentence. First, visiting magi would want to at least introduce themselves before being weakened inside a foreign Aegis. They would probably want a token before entering, and at very least not want to be thought of as an intruder. Second, many familiars cannot simply pass through the Aegis's boundary. My magi, at least, don't like just leaving their familiars behind at the outskirts of a covenant while going inside themselves.

[Berengar]

@pierre-gay

Hi,

reading the Corebook p.76 about social penalty for Gifted characters entering a foreign covenant, there is this paragraph:

These descriptions assume that the visitors announce themselves as Hermetic magi, and are not known to be hostile. They also assume that the guard room is outside the Aegis of the Hearth.

I wonder: does the last sentence implies that covenant grogs inside of the Aegis would be immune to a Gifted stranger's social effect if it was not given a token?

No. Reading the entire little chapter ArM p.76 A Covenant, you find that magi, unless they have the Blatant Gift, are asked into the guard room while the covenant's magi are informed.
This just requires some autonomy of the grogs about whom they ask into it. And they might not have that autonomy wrt the covenant's Aegis.

Cheers

[pierre-gay]

Thanks for the explanation. Grogs' autonomy regarding the AotH clarifies all.

By the way, I was wondering why and how Parma Magica was apparently the only thing able to protect from the Gift social effects.

I suppose this point was frequently discussed in this forum already, so I would gladly accept pointers, if any.

[silveroak]

As I understand it this setup allows mages to interact as if there were no penalty (and thus not requiring players to act as hostile towards each other), while still having to face hostility from mundane society.

[Berengar]

@pierre-gay

Thanks for the explanation. Grogs' autonomy regarding the AotH clarifies all.

By the way, I was wondering why and how Parma Magica was apparently the only thing able to protect from the Gift social effects.

I suppose this point was frequently discussed in this forum already, so I would gladly accept pointers, if any.

There are other ways to create groups of Gifted people working together - provided they really wish to do so. Here scouring the books helps.

E. g. every tradition able to bestow the Minor General Virtue Unaffected by the Gift (RoP:M p.47) to its members could do. Learned Magicians would use Succurro Fortunam (HMRE p.90 box) for this.

Cheers

[pierre-gay]

I'm wondering about 2 spells, still on the same subject:

• Haunt of the Living Ghost (CrIm lvl 35, ArM5 p. 144): are people interacting with the image upset by the caster's Gift?
• Exchange of the Two Minds (ReMe lvl 55, ArM5 p. 152): if one of the target has the Gift, will the social effect be experienced in presence of his original body, or the new one? Or even both?

[ExarKun]

I'd say, and serf's parma:

• no. You are not present.
• the part where is the "spirit"/"mind" of the magus.

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@One Shot

@pierre-gay

Thanks for the explanation. Grogs' autonomy regarding the AotH clarifies all.

By the way, I was wondering why and how Parma Magica was apparently the only thing able to protect from the Gift social effects.

I suppose this point was frequently discussed in this forum already, so I would gladly accept pointers, if any.

There are other ways to create groups of Gifted people working together - provided they really wish to do so. Here scouring the books helps.

E. g. every tradition able to bestow the Minor General Virtue Unaffected by the Gift (RoP:M p.47) to its members could do. Learned Magicians would use Succurro Fortunam (HMRE p.90 box) for this.

Cheers

Yep, the Soqotrans instead communicate through magical spirit proxies. This shields them from the Gift, but it puts them under the thumb of the King of the spirits, who is basically running their email server.

[pierre-gay]

@ExarKun

I'd say, and serf's parma:

• no. You are not present.
• the part where is the "spirit"/"mind" of the magus.

So, this effect is:

• not propagated through normal species.
• linked to the character's mind, not body/soul.

Not sure of what the mind/soul consideration means, but I feel the "Haunt of the Living Ghost" may be interesting for several purposes.

Thanks for all your answers.

Pierre

[ExarKun]

Soul/spirit/mind consideration is derivated from the fact that the soul being a divine aspect of a human in the setting is unaffectable by the hermetic magic (limit of the divine)

[pierre-gay]

@ExarKun

Soul/spirit/mind consideration is derivated from the fact that the soul being a divine aspect of a human in the setting is unaffectable by the hermetic magic (limit of the divine)

I understand. Still, if the Gift and its social effect seem to be "attached" to the mind and not to the soul, it's an interesting point. For instance, one could deduce that the Gift itself is not a gift of God. Don't you think?

[Ezechiel3571]

I would suggest to look at the following topic "Spell casting when consciousness has been transferred" (sorry, I cannot create a link).
It tackles the issues of casting through proxy, if the Gift effect follows the Spirit of the mage and various considerations and consequences linked to the Gift and the mage spirit.

[ExarKun]

@pierre-gay

@ExarKun

Soul/spirit/mind consideration is derivated from the fact that the soul being a divine aspect of a human in the setting is unaffectable by the hermetic magic (limit of the divine)

I understand. Still, if the Gift and its social effect seem to be "attached" to the mind and not to the soul, it's an interesting point. For instance, one could deduce that the Gift itself is not a gift of God. Don't you think?

That's clearly a "YSMV" point of view. Magi could also argue that the Gift being a gift of God, then the flaw is in the MT and the limit of the divine can be somewhat fixed.

[pierre-gay]

@Ezechiel357: Thanks for the pointer. This thread is just what I was looking for.

Pierre

[pierre-gay]

@ExarKun

That's clearly a "YSMV" point of view. Magi could also argue that the Gift being a gift of God, then the flaw is in the MT and the limit of the divine can be somewhat fixed.

This could be used as a good story seed

[ExarKun]

Pierre, certainly!

I hope you will have fun with your troupe, be it about this or about anything.