Great Talisman

When you add component to great talisman, is it possible to install component that requires more magic theory than magus have?
It says in Great Talisman virtue that only number of components are limited by magic theory.
So for example can magus, with magic theory 4, makes invested item wooden staff (requires 8 pawns), then attune it as talisman for
himself and finally (if he has Great Talisman virtue) add diamond, ruby and emerald and gain all shape and material bonuses?

Independently of the Mystery of Great Talisman, the number of pawns of Vim vis to prepare a talisman with is not limited by the enchanter's Magic Theory, but by his highest TeFo combination. See ArM5 p. 98 for that.

This limitation holds for every enchantment. See ArM5 p. 97.

Yes, he can do so - provided his highest TeFo combination is at least 15 (minimum needed to incorporate a precious gem). See ArM5 p. 97 for this. This value is quite achievable even for a magus character just after gauntlet.


EDIT: Phrased limitations and their consequences more precisely.

IIRC a magus wanting a Talisman must start with a device opened for enchantment, and must have instilled the vis himself.

Season 1: Invest vis. At first he is limited by MTx2 to the amount of vis he can use.
Season 2: Imbue as Talisman, the frst S&M bonus can be attuned
Season 3: He can invest more vis, he is still limited by MTx2 per season, but the Talisman how holds an amount equal to his best Tech+Form, rather than limited by material and size. Another S&M bonus can be attuned.
And so on

Absolutely correct, this question concerns the use of the Great Talisman mystery - which allows new items to be installed into the Talisman.

It seems that even with Great Talisman you are still limited by Magic Theory score as to how many components. The nice trick with this is that you can take advantage of increased score in Magic Theory. The amount of vis the item could normally hold is not important once it is a Talisman.

So in the original question, a magus invests a wooden staff for the maximum amount of vis he can handle. He then completely by the numbers adds three priceless gems, and can now use the S&M of all gems, wood and staff.
He could not have invested it originally as a compound device since that would have required him to use vis for the highest capacity component - i.e. the gemstone.
However using Great talisman he adds the gems but the talisman can still only hold 8 pawns worth of enchantments...untill he spends another season investing with yet another 8 pawns of vis, again and again up to his limit of best Tech+Form.

PS I really, really like this Mystery!

Me too!

I'm just planning magus with Consummate Talisman and Names of Power. I'm gonna put my talisman full of names of power via those virtues.
With Great Talisman i don't need insanely high magic theory to choose right shape and material bonuses (thanks for confirming rules).
My magus has magic theory 5 with specialty in casting spells (i think it's ok).
With talisman full of bonuses from shapes, materials and names of power, magus can have very nice boost to casting totals +6-12.

I'm not sure about that speciality, Magic Theory isn't used for casting spells, it's a thing for the lab. So one would think about specializing in a lab activity, or even a Form.

Awesome! Would you perhaps mind sharing a few of these Names here?
I have a player whp's been talking about Names of Power recently, but I'm rubbish at thinking up names/protfolios

Inventing spells is OK - casting spells?
I'd be tempted to go with Christian and say no - but a specialty in vim would obviously work!

Remember that only one talisman bonus works at a time (IIRC) - and you might want a star ruby.
Maybe Potent Magic as well?

If I can rephrase and answer, I think you're asking if you can put an item with a bonus greater than one's magic theory into a Great Talisman. The answer is yes, you can install any component into an item, you are just limited to your Magic Theory in what you can utilize. For example, a ring with a piece of red corral offers a +10 bonus vs. demons, but a magus only has an MT of 5. The bonus for attunement or enchanting an effect will be limited to +5, because of the MT.

That applies to any and all items, only with a Greater Talisman, one can add additional components as their Magic Theory score increases. No need to recreate a talisman to take advantage of more components from a higher Magic Theory score.

This could happen before, it just needed to happen before the item was opened for enchantment. Greater Talisman just allows the magus to add components later on, as his score increases.

Magic Theory governs the total # of components, the amount of vis that can be invested/handled in a season and also the maximum bonus allowable from the shape and material of the item. Does that make sense?

Echoing what Vespasian said, I don't think a specialty in casting spells works. Put picking an Art could certainly increase the available shape and material bonus in certain situations. But in my mind a specialty in enchanting items allows another component AND also increases the bonus from the Shape and Material (IMO).

I can enter details of my NoP's in this topic, once i have made them myself. :slight_smile:

Hum.. I was thinking something like practical theorist or intuitive adaptation, but if i'm thinking again, these sound like some virtues.

I think enchanting specialty won't work. Only Names of Power are limited by MT and using them via talisman isn't enchanting. Shape and Material bonuses aren't limited, if we are talking about casting score, but you may only use highest.

Now it is never explicitly stated that a Talisman is bound by the same limit, but it is certainly reasonable. Whether multiple bonuses could apply at once, I hadn't thought about, to be honest. But, the overall limit on the amount of the bonus should be limited to Magic Theory, IMO.

As I understand the question, it has nothing to do with the bonus.

When preparing a compound item, you must use Vim Vis equal to either of (ArM5, p. 97)

  1. Vis capacity of the most expensive component
  2. sum of Vis capacities of components.

Vis used in the lab is limited* by Magic theory x2 (ArM5, p. 94).

Thus no-one with MT less than 8 can have a precious gem in en invested item, including a talisman.

  • but what if said precious gem is added after the item has already been turned into a talisman, a trick made possible via the Great Talisman virtue.

*Verditius mysteries and the like not withstanding.

Is it possible to add a totally functioning magic item to the Great Talisman as a new component and keep both the magic item's and the talisman's powers?

No, there is currently no way in Hermetic Magic to combine two enchanted items. The closest is the Verditius mystery of Reforging Enchanted Items, which allows you to "compress" the enchantments to free up space.

That is not to say you can not physically connect two enchanted items. For example individually enchanting each link in a chain or the buttons/toggles on an enchanted shirt. Doing so does not combine them. They are still individual items, each with their own enchantments. They are not treated as components of each other and can not use each others S&M bonuses.

For the shirt and toggles example, the shirt would be build with leather ties but no toggles then enchanted. Individual toggles would be enchanted, then have a leather tie passed through it and knotted.

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