Visions is a Story Flaw - a Minor one, i.e. one providing a benefit. Hence, grogs cannot take it at character creation: the motivation is that grogs should not be the focus of stories.
But what happens if some other means is employed to give a grog Visions, perhaps temporarily? The case at hand is a grog folk witch spending a season to enrich a Cornu Ammonis, which as per RoP:M "gives the Minor Supernatural Flaw Visions (ArM5, page 60) to anyone who sleeps with it under his head, perhaps under a pillow or some straw".
I can see two main possibilities:
Grogs simply cannot have Story Flaws. The Cornu Ammonis does not work for a grog. Full stop. If you really want it to work for the character, make him either a companion or an NPC.
Story Flaws are a combination of the "drag-into-stories" effect, applicable to companions and magi alone, and either a small benefit equivalent to a Minor Virtue (for Minor Story Flaws) or a small hindrance equivalent to a Minor Flaw (for Major Story Flaws). Grogs who are granted Story Flaws in game effectively get only the benefit/hindrance, but not the "drag-into-stories" effect. Thus, a grog can use a Cornu Ammonis, and it will give him Visions, but it will not drag him into Stories.
Variants of this might be:
2b. When a grog receives a Story Flaw, it affects some other character capable of having Story Flaws (in this case, a companion or magus would be compelled to follow the grog's Visions).
2c. No drag-into-stories for anyone, but a Major/Minor Story Flaw becomes a Minor Flaw/Virtue for a grog. With the troupe's permission this might be allowed for companions or magi too, whose player wants the attached benefit/hindrace but does not that type of Stories (e.g. because he's taken a different Story Flaw).
So, how do/would you play it?
Grog characters can never have Visions, without becoming Companions or NPCs.
Grog characters cannot have Visions at character creation, but can gain it later - it just does not drag them into Stories.
As above, but some Companion or Magus is dragged into Stories with/instead of the Grog.
Grog characters can have Visions, as a Minor Virtue that does not drag them into Stories.
I voted that a grog shouldn't have a story flaw (visions) but I think it is a little more nuanced. I have very little problem with a grog being effected by a story flaw like visions and being dragged into the story. I have much more of a problem with a grog who can, without having a story flaw, create a new story flaw.
I don't like the idea of a grog folk witch creating story flaws - that character should be a companion. Then the visions can compel the grog into the story but also entangles the companion who is the source of the visions.
I do not see the groups as being rigid after creation. A grog who becomes more central to the story can become a companion. a companion with the Gift can go through apprenticeship and become a mage.
If the grog gets the enriched CornuAmmonis and sleeps with it they will become the focus of a story, at the end of which they will have either lost the item or become a companion. It is worth noting that to even get the item and enrich it already requires some unusual virtues for a grog- like an arcane ability.
I'd say that a grog who acquires the Vision flaw might not be dragged into stories... but would rather drag other characters in the saga in them.
Essentially, to me, a grog who acquires a Story flaw would either become a companion (if one of the players take him as such), or become a covenant Hook.
I think it's fine for the grog witch to pick up Visions.
Personally I would distinguish this from the case of the companion witch insofar as I would give the SG more license to subject the grog witch to Hallucinations either as an additional or replacement power. I'd be more hesitant to do that to a full-fledged companion.
This doesn't give the Story Flaw of Visions, it gives the Supernatural Flaw of Visions. Grogs can have Supernatural Flaws, and so can have the Visions Flaw -- as it is available as both a Story and Supernatural Flaw. It just probably shouldn't drag the grog into Stories.
Basic idea: What happens in game, happens.
If a grog gain Visions from some story event or entity, congratulations, that grog now has Visions.
If you feel you need to "promote" the grog to a companion, feel free to do so, but I wouldn't consider it necessary.
Don't get too hung up on things like 'grogs cannot have story flaws' - that's really a rule for character creation. And even then... I don't have the ArMDE with me, so I'll refer to ArM5, p. 37, gorgs: "You should not take Story Flaws." Not cannot. Certainly not "grogs can never have Story Flaws". Just should.
Hmmm ... no.
Visions cannot be taken as either a Story Flaw or a Supernatural Flaw. It can only be taken as a Flaw that is simultaneously Story and Supernatural. So the restriction against grogs taking it technically applies.
Although ... there is something compelling in your argument. I just do not find it convincing enough (note that I'd actually like to be convinced).
Hmm. But on p.28 it says "In addition, grogs may not have The Gift (having The Gift makes you an important character), and may not have Story Flaws, as those Flaws make characters central to stories, and that is not the role of the grogs."
In general, it seems to me that the constraints on the maximum number of Story Flaws (1 for Companions and Magi, 0 for grogs) should always apply strictly, and not only at character creation, because either:
a) you ignore the "drag-into-stories" effect, in which case they are unbalanced (they yield two extra "undeserved" points) or
b) you do activate the "drag-into-stories" effect for each Story Flaw, in which case you can wreak havoc on the story economy of the game.
Whatever the letter of the rules, I would 100% leave this to the GM. If they think a Grog with Visions can set up good stories, they should allow it. If not, they get to say "No: pick something that will mean something in play, that Flaw would never come up for a Grog."
In fact the rules already support grog-level characters with the Visions Flaw. Check out the Misguided Mystic grog archetype in Grogs (p119-121). It's suggested that she might "have both the Visions and Hallucinations* Flaws." And then later, in discussing how to make the archetype into a companion-level character it specifically calls out the "Visions Story Flaw."
I don't think there is an issue with a grog experiencing visions if that makes sense in the context of the story. I also don't think the Visions Story Flaw is required for any other character to experience visions. To me, taking a Story Flaw is a way for the player to indicate "these are the types of stories I want this character to be involved in", or "here is a lever you can use to force this character to get involved". Those don't really make sense for a Grog. That doesn't mean a grog can't be used to deliver the inciting event for a story though, and if that happens to be in form of a vision I don't really see a problem.
A possible exception to this would be if there is a Companion or Magus with the Visions flaw. Because they have already staked a claim for these types of stories some care may be required. A grog stealing their thunder probably isn't a great idea.
Does it matter? The idea is to drag the troupe into stories, right? Who cares if individual characters are balanced? This game also has mechanics for initiations and pilgrimages.
I'm sorry, but what?!
At least in our troupe, the story economy is pretty simple: More Stories == More Better. Is this somehow fundamentally different in your saga?
You can always tie the Visions to whatever story you already wanted to bait your troupe to jump on, neh?
Well, but with initiations and pilgrimages you pay for gaining Virtues.
If one could gain arbitrary Minor Story Flaws ad libitum, then it would become easy to abuse the system adding to any Initiation a "Gain Minor Story Flaw" Ordeal, which effectively makes the Initiation easier, while giving the Initiated an extra boon (a Minor Story Flaw is effectively a nice perk + stories). Now, maybe you think that's a non-issue because maybe you run your games eyeballing what's ok and what is not, and that's great! But I was trying to get a feeling of how things worked in a very "mechanistic", Rules-As-Written sense, because I've found that's always the best starting point to make fair judgements at my gaming table. Does that makes sense?
Yes. Even with a relatively small gaming group (3 players), even strictly limiting the number of Story Flaws to 1 per magus and 1 per companion, and adding half-a-dozen Covenant Hooks, we already have a dozen concurrent plotlines. That's already quite a bit to juggle, but manageable. What prevents it from getting unmanageable is the limit of one Story Flaw per companion or magus, and the rough limit of "all Covenant Hooks should come into play within any six month period of game time".
If those were lifted, and players were encouraged to get more Story Flaws for their characters, the result would be ... that a lot of Story Flaws would simply never activate, and possibly an imbalance in how "central" each companion and magus is to a saga. This is what I meant - I hope I was clearer this time.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I've been on a similar path some years ago, being a 'numbers guy' at heart. I also suspect you will be disappointed, but that you will learn some interesting things - if you do, please share!
Much clearer. And I'm certainly familiar with having failed my phrasing the first (or second or sixth...) time around
I'm most certainly NOT advocate letting character take as many Story Flaws as they can physically fit on their sheet or anything silly like that. What I am advocating is to let up on the restrictions from character creation, once you're passed character creation.
Quoting myself...
Further more, Visions of all Story Flaws, is one that's very easy to deal with - dragging others into their stories or generally being a helping tool for an SG.
And that sort of leads to one of the points that I was trying to make, but clearly wasn't clear enough about:
Multiple Story Flaws/Covenant Hooks can lead to the same story. You don't necessarily need a story per story flaw, every 6 months (I tried this. I failed.)
If you can weave a story for which multiple characters are strongly motivated, so much the better!
Story flaws can also be flavorful. It's okay if your tormenting master never gets to torment you because your character takes steps to always be one step ahead and gets political backup in exchange for favors, etc.
