Healing through aging

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Hi all,
everyone knows that wounds heal over time or get worse. (obviously not all wounds, as limbs can't re-attach)

So I was thinking of some type of ReCo effect which would speed the aging process. (ReCo Base 15, direct the flow of bodily energy)
As such a character would make healing rolls at a faster interval, e.g. 7 times faster than normal. so a light wound would heal after 1 day instead of 1 week.

This would be a non-ritual spell with a sun duration and would be cast twice for a light wound. If the wound is treated and the recovery roll is a success then a light wound can be cured in a single day. More severe wounds may necessitate an ageing roll as a season or more time has passed.

Heavy wound -> medium -> light
1 season + 1 month + 1 week, all in 17 days. with 34 castings of the spell.

It should be noted that the spell does not guarantee a successful recovery, it just speeds up the time taken.

2

Well, the lesser Hermitic limit of Time might be an issue. Second, the Metagame has a "Hermetic Limit (not spoken of "in game" but definitely mentioned in the design part of the game) of Vis being required for permanent healing, save, of course, for Runic Magic, which has it's own problems. Heck, that might be the best way to calibrate this little end-run. You are under the power of the ReCo spell for the whole time the spell is working, but what time is that? One week or one day? I would say that, as far as the magic works, one week. So, a higher magnitude spell (for the "longer" duration) and warping, for being under a magic effect, long term (Again, using Runic Magic as your benchmark). You would also probably have to do a little Original Research, to get your odd duration (one week=one day, etc.). You would also have to add a second "duration" element to your spell, one the reverse of the normal one, with each magnitude reducing the "real" time of the spell. Last, I think most games would find the required tracking of one's age to the day to be too much bookkeeping, I think the aging roll should be forced, not an possibility, with the bonus that you would not have to keep track of relative age vs. actual age.....

3

IMO Aging has no effect on recovery even if both are results of the passing of time. Moreover, PeCo25 Bane of the Decrepit Body is a Perdo spell.

I would look into HMRE's witches for insights since Fatigue recovery could also be thought as time manipulation. If you don't care about vis but only want to save some time, Ritual Items on p54 fits the bill. If you want something of the same order, it should require the same 45-55 Breakthrough point.

4

I'd be tempted to allow it, but with some side effect. Speeding up the metabolism of a person is dangerous and stressful.

For example, this might entail a penalty to the next annual Aging roll and force one such roll right away.

The penalty would be based on the time factor (+1 for a week, +2 for a month, +3 for a season) and cumulative within the year.

So if you use a week-effect spell on a young grog, he must make an Aging roll with a +1 penalty. A second application later in the year forces another such roll, but with a +2 modifier to the roll.

If the same spells are cast on a person who has started making annual aging rolls, he will also have a +2 modifier to his annual Aging roll.

Some may find this too harsh, but that kind of magic is trying to bypass the need for vis in healing. So yes it works, but the price can be steep.

5

In return, it adds to age. Time is far more valuable than Vis.

Irrelevant, otherwise several official spells/base guidelines wouldnt work either.

It isn´t permanent healing. That is a side-effect that MAY happen(if recovery roll is failed, it´s just a way to get worse faster).

Agreed.

But it isn´t aging. That is also a side-effect of the spell.

Personally i think it works, but should inflict 1 pt warping for each casting, as regardless spell level, it directly affects the body in a very drastic way.

And of course, all additional age is added and at minimum if it starts getting much, it should affect at least 1 aging roll. Or due to the strain the body goes through, you could add twice or more of the effective time to age.
So:

This could for example cause 1 year and 5 months to be added to actual age if using 4 as multiplier. That would make it very useful as something used once or twice, but definitely not something anyone wants to use all the time.

6

I had a player in my saga investigate speeding up healing. This page is where we got to http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/thelemur/ars/restricted/restricted_herrit_2.html

7

Examples?

8

Well, there's the one to make a plant grow to maturity overnight, and one which, serf's parma, gives a decrepitude point. Nothing that "changes" the flow of time that I can think of......

9

Yup those ones. There´s also the ReHe base 15 "Make a tree blossom out of season, in a moment."
There´s at least one more somewhere but i can´t recall where it is right now(currently only have my own books and i think it´s in one of the others).

10

That's why I think the Limit of Time might be involved. All the "canon" examples are "do something, now", and this spell is "speed up time", which is different. A "canon" example would seem to be along the lines of "age creature until wounds are healed", which I think we all agree would be an end run around the game mechanic requirement "Magic Healing requires Viz", as well as the unspoken rule, "no haste spells, or other spells that would give you more actions in a round.".

11

Realms of Power: Faeries p. 129 have the Weal guidelines, which include: Reduce the interval at which all of the target's wounds heal naturally by one step. (Ritual)

Integration should be possible, but reducing it to non-ritual might be a problem.

12

Exactly.

Ah, my apologies. I should have specified Hermetic effects, as the Limit of Time is a Hermetic Limit.
The Fae have their own rules.

13

I'm not trying to gainsay you, but the guidelines are there, meaning that integration might be possible. Would require original research or the virtues to create a Hermetic Ritual using the guidelines though.

14

This spell is also 100% "do something now". It doesn´t affect time at all. Aging, healing etc are all side-effects.

The spell does exactly the same thing as one that matures a plant instantly. Just applied on a person instead of a plant. It drastically affects metabolism. The spell does nothing at all with time.

I mean please, the OP even specifies exactly which Guideline is being used, how on earth can anyone get "direct the flow of bodily energy" into actually manipulating time?

There are even medical techniques, from modern all the way back to ancient which uses manipulation of metabolism to counter disease.
Take a guess for example, why this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchicum_autumnale
in Swedish has a name that translates as "Timeless"? Because it´s been used against cancer for a looong time, as it slows down metabolism(or more specifically, mostly, mitosis).(unfortunately it´s also a very dangerous plant to use so do NOT get any ideas about experimenting).

And my book on ancient use of medicinal herbs lists a whole 22 plants that can be used to raise metabolism.

15

After reading some of the comments on this topic, I feel that I should point out that I am NOT trying to get around healing with vis. Healing with a ritual and vis is both instant and perfect. The process I am talking about will leave the person incapacitated and in pain for weeks, eventually they may heal but their injuries will leave horrible scars. Wounds that a ritual would heal could in this case mean amputation then rapid healing to get them back on their feet.

Also, some things will not naturally heal, such as missing eyes or lost body parts. To a magus, a mundane aging a year may be better than paying vis, however it has the story potential of a divide between the different types of healing.

I can see a few possibilities for this spell to take:

  1. like the spell to raise to maturity over a night, the character gains a year of age and makes an immediate age roll.

  2. like the spell to accelerate the healing process by a factor of x over a period of days/weeks. The character is at a severe penalty due to the process. They are 2 long-term fatigues down and have a penalty to most actions for the duration of the spell.

  3. like the spell to bring a tree to bloom instantly. The wound instantly either heals or worsen's, the character gains a warping point and loses all of their fatigue levels.

16

Hi again,
after talking it through with my troupe we came up with some more ramifications to this healing process. This is where people with disfigured and missing eye/hand/ear come from. It should also be noted that once a wound has healed "badly" that now becomes their essential nature and magic cannot heal it back to perfection.

This group of spells also allows for medical specialists such as chirurgens. They will align the bones, stitch the wounds and apply poultices before the healing magic.

A bone that is not set will speed heal into the wrong shape.

17

Health of Tomorrow
ReCo 30

This spell forces the body to accelerate it's healing process allowing to heal light wounds faster than one would usually be able to.

Mandicus of Flambeau used this spell a number of times to help in the war against the infidels, readying the holy troops for yet another day of war.

Instead of rolling for recovery every week, you can roll every day while under the effect of this spell.

(Base 15, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, Ind)

Blessing of the Moon
ReCo 40

This spell forces the body to accelerate it's healing process allowing to heal much faster injuries up to medium level than one would usually be able to.

Under the comfort of the moon's glow, the target will feel his body rejuvenating. During the day, he will suffer the pain of the wounds as he never did before.

Mandicus of Flambeau loved to look at the moon during the calm nights of the holy land. He often used this spell to help in the war against the infidels, readying the holy troops for yet another day of war.

Lower the interval for the recovery roll by one increment while under the effect of this spell. Light wounds recovery rolls are rolled for recovery every day while recovery for medium wounds are rolled every week.

(Base 20, +1 Touch, +3 Moon, Ind)

Blessing of the Full Moon
ReCo 50

This spell forces the body to accelerate it's healing process allowing to heal much faster all injuries than one would usually be able to.

Under the comfort of the Full moon's glow, the target will feel his body rejouvenating. During this single night, the target will feel the evergy of the moon flowing into his vains.

Mandicus of Flambeau, with the help of his focus with the moon, created this mighthy healing spell. In dire times, he used this spell to help in the war against the infidels, readying the holy troops for yet another day of war.

Make one recovery roll to see if the target heals all his wounds.

The strain to the body is such that the target must make an aging roll but can add the medecine/Cirurgy skills that are used to attend to his wounds as a bonus in addition to the LP bonus if applicable.

(Base 35, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, Ind)

W

18

Healing is your body trying to return to it's more perfect state in Ars Magica, hence Creo. What you seem to be assuming is that they know something of the biological processes involved in healing, which they don't discover until Hooke invents the microscope. The spells that accelerate healing make it easier for you to heal, otherwise it might take longer, helping your body return to it's more perfect state. Also ArM p78 (Rego cannot make an animal old, because aging decays away from the form, so predo can do this). I believe this falls strictly into the limit of time and the limit of essential nature. To age something past adulthood takes it away from it's essential nature or it's more perfect state.

19

You'd have to cast it twice every day though, meaning 2 Warping per recovery roll. :laughing:

20

No, it´s based on the basic knowledge "people tend to heal over time". As i noted in my previous post, herbs were used to affect people´s metabolism literally thousands of years back. Among other reasons, to achieve exactly this.

Even if it is to a much smaller degree, this is historical knowledge. They obviously don´t need a microscope for this because people already knew about this long before any such was ever made. Even if exact understanding was probably very much lacking.

Again, Rego affects how the body works(although this spell probably needs a Mu requisite if it speeds things up too much as it then goes beyond what a body can do "normally"), the suggested spell does nothing at all with time, nor healing.

Any healing or aging are purely SIDEFFECTS.

And BTW, Hooke didn´t invent the microscope. He made good USE of them. And regardless of any ambiguities, Galileo DID make microscopes much earlier(3 decades before Hooke was born).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... technology
[i]c2000 BCE - The Chinese use water microscopes made of a lens and a water-filled tube to visualize the unseen.

Up to 612 BCE - The Assyrians manufacture the world's oldest surviving lenses.
[/i]

Add to that that there are some lenses found from the viking era as well(probably from both local and nonlocal manufacture), suggesting that it was not a rare thing to exist, but rare to survive over time, as they´re brittle.
(these lenses are often not included because of a longrunning argument about how they cant have been used as lenses because of this or that or people at the time obviously not being smart enough etc etc...(pretty much Antikythera mechanism argument part deux) Anyone having seen the lenses, its blatantly obvious what they´re useful for. Noone could own one for a day without figuring out that they can be used as a simple microscope.)