Help Finding Rules: Botch Dice and Auras

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

A couple questions came up in last night's game, possibly stemming from confusing 4th and 5th edition rules. I can't find the rules in the book, but I'd like confirmation that they're not there before I tell players that those are not, in fact, the rules.

If they are in there and I just can't find them, you are welcome to blame my idiocity or the rule's layout as suits you.

Okay... as I prepared this I just found the answer to my first question, so there's only one now.

Botch Dice & Auras

A character casting a spell in a magic regio with a level 7 aura rolls a 0. How many botch dice does he roll?

At the time half of us remembered the rule one botch die for each level of the aura, and half rememebered a rule, that doesn't happen to magi in a magic realm, and some of thought that it was an issue of whether you were use to the aura or not.

I'm guessing that the "it doesn't apply to magi in a magic realm" stems from page 183: "Auras also affect the number of botch rolls for an attempted supernatual act in a foreign realm. For each point of aura rating, roll an extra botch die."

What's a foreign realm?

It gets worse, though, because on page 190 under Magic in Regiones it says, "Supernatural powers or spells used in a regio level are affected just as in any other aura, determined by the Realm Interaction Table... however, any power used within a foreign regio attracts twice the normal number of botch dice."

Well, maybe it doesn't get worse. But the point is, I don't see a handy definition of "foreign." One interpretation would be simply any one of the other three... if you're a magi Fairy, Divine and Infernal are all foreign, but any Magical aura (or regio) is, umm, not foreign. Or it could mean that your aura is okay, but as soon as you go out into any other aura, you're in a foreign aura, even if it's a magical aura.

Is it an open definition or a closed one?

Any thoughts? Or any sentences that my rereading of the chapter managed to completely miss?

2

Magi are from the Magic Realm, hence Faerie, Infernal and Divine Realms are foreign.

A magus in a magic regio rolls 1 botch die as a base.

3

And for a merenita or a mage with holy magic these auras would also count as "home" auras.

4

The example that follow the rule statement on page 183 does clarify the meaning of "foreign aura" as being auras of a different realm from the power you're using, with divine powers being unnaffected in any case.

5

Cool. Not quite as explicit as I'd like, but I'll take it.

6

Therefore, following your interpretation, to avoid warping it suffices being affiliated with realm in question (as in having a supernatural Virtue or Flaw from it), but to avoid extra botch dice the power itself must be aligned with the Realm's Aura ?? Well, this makes Virtues like Faerie Magic or Holy Magic even more valuable, since not only you avoid penalties (or gain full benefits) from that aura, but you gain one extra almost-botch-free "home aura" (even if in the latter case, the restriction of not being able to use magic for sinful purposes makes it all but useless: what no angry blasting of annoying mundanes, no lust-charming of pretty lasses... I can imagine no true-blooded mage, except the Jerbiton wussies and stuck-up Guernicus, being able to put up with that :smiling_imp: ).

There's only one thing I do not understand: if your interpretation is true, what's the purpose of having realm-aligned spells for the magic realm (or the faerie realm, for merinita mages) in HoH: TL ?

7

That's my interpretation of the rule & example. It does clearly state that the faerie power doesn't get the extra botch dice in a faerie aura.

Yes, Merinita magi do get significantly more than just a few extra spell parameters.

(even if in the latter case, the restriction of not being able to use magic for sinful purposes makes it all but useless:

You are just motivating them to repent their sins. Annoying a magus is Sloth: if they had bothered to make the effort to think about it for a minute, they would have known they would get blasted. Q.E.D.

Plus, I'm sure that with a small amount of work you can get yourself your very own, Church-sanctioned crusade.

In more general terms forward a couple centuries, and you get the Inquisition which, following the fundamental principles of RoP:tD, would have full Divine backing. Patience is a Virtue, after all. Being virtuous is what it's all about. :wink:

Go forth and multiply? :smiley:

Flambeau and the Reconquista. :smiling_imp:

Beats me. That's a genuine contradiction.

Most people (myself included) probably played with the previous editions' rules, where you get the botch die regardless of the nature of the aura. The mention on page 184 that "apprentices get overpowered" in strong Magic auras also goes in that direction if you make the connection overpowered = Twilight.

From that, I can easily understand that the author of the Bonisagus section could have missed that point. Not that it matters overmuch since Realm-aligned spells are an example of a breakthrough, not something that's part of the game's core metaphysics. So we don't really have another Ward Penetration problem here.

Anyway, if you consider the principle behind Realm-aligned spells, you'll note that it does match the rules as they currently appear to stand: you align your spell with a Realm, and it doesn't suffer from extra botch dice, just as it is for "native" powers of that Realm.

I would ignore the bit about Magic-aligned spell unless you decide that Hermetic Magic does suffer from additional botch dice in Magic auras (regardless of how other kind of powers are handled). It works either way.

8

That's my interpretation of the rule & example. It does clearly state that the faerie power doesn't get the extra botch dice in a faerie aura.

Yes, Merinita magi do get significantly more than just a few extra spell parameters.

You are piously motivating them to repent their sins. Annoying a magus is Sloth: if they had bothered to make the effort to think about it for a minute, they would have known they would get blasted. Q.E.D.

Plus, I'm sure that with a small amount of work you can get yourself your very own, Church-sanctioned crusade.

Or heck, just create your own church were blasting mundanes is not a sin.

You can also wait for a couple centuries, and you get the Spanish Inquisition (which, following the fundamental principles of RoP:tD, would have full Divine backing). Then you can go ahead and blast anybody that looks suspect. Patience is a Virtue, after all. Being virtuous is what it's all about. :wink:

Go forth and multiply? :smiley:

Flambeau and the Reconquista. :smiling_imp:

(In spite of the House stereotype, I don't perceive him as an out-of-control pyromaniac. He had a Cause. He was ready to die for it.)

Beats me. That's a genuine contradiction.

Most people (myself included) probably played with the previous editions' rules, where you get the botch die regardless of the nature of the aura. The mention on page 184 that "apprentices get overpowered" in strong Magic auras also goes in that direction if you make the connection overpowered = Twilight.

From that, I can easily understand that the author of the Bonisagus section could have missed that point. Not that it matters overmuch since Realm-aligned spells are an example of a breakthrough, not something that's part of the game's core metaphysics. So we don't really have another Ward Penetration problem here.

Anyway, if you consider the principle behind Realm-aligned spells, you'll note that it does match the rules as they currently appear to stand: you align your spell with a Realm, and it doesn't suffer from extra botch dice, just as it is for "native" powers of that Realm.

I would ignore the bit about Magic-aligned spell unless you decide that Hermetic Magic does suffer from additional botch dice in Magic auras (regardless of how other kind of powers are handled). It works either way.

9

The botch dice are reduced by the Realm Lore Ability. Useful for rituals etc.

10

Good point. I misread the rules. :blush:

11

Ahh, I see. That makes much better sense now. Even if I have to remark, in their proposed form, realm-aligned spells make for a rather lousy, as in lab-time-wasting, discovery. The variants of Parma, especially Ablativa, Absorbea, and Repercussa, look like a much more worthwhile discovery. It might be maybe barely worth the effort if it was an option for a mastered spell. But if a mage wants to seriously diminish the likelihood of botches, far better to divert its efforts in other directions.

12

:bulb: Yoink!!, new spell mastery options added for my game.

13

Yep, especially taking into account that Faerie Auras are by far the second most likely aura type for a mage to live in or meet while on adventure, and they become the perfect equivalent of Magic ones for Merinita. IMO, Merinita is by far the most worthwhile House Mystery to initiate for the average magus (Criamon being a somewhat close second: Enigmatic Wisdom is a double-edged sword, excellent for the impatient magus eager to grasp mastery of magic secrets, bad for those who wish long lifespans). Of course, this evaluation may change when the full picture of House Mysteries become available, but I wouldn't bet on it (even if I ardently hope Inner Merinita Mysteries don't bring back the ugly idea of Faerie Magic mandatorily messing with Art scores).

Yeah, all true, but for my tastes, if a crusade must be done, I far better prefer it to be a Pagan one, with righteous Old Gods-aligned mages pushing back the Dominion from Europe with spell and sword, and ensuring that the welfare and sanctity of magic and faerie is uphold on a equal footing with th Dominion forever (if the Church wants a realm, let it be kept penned in the cities). No filthy den of the Nailed God's worshippers should be tolerated to stand or exist near a Magic or Faerie site. Guardians of the Forest have the right idea. Even one magic or faerie site or vis source lost to the priests is one too much. :smiling_imp:

Or if you prefer a more subtle, less bloody approach, the Dominion cannot stand without regularly performed services: get priests corrupted, disgraced or kidnapped, encourage revivals of pagan religions among peasants, cause the area to come under interdict...

14

(mispost)

15

I don't think that's that good an idea for a mastery option. Mastery only gives you one fewer botch die per level of mastery, which must be acquired for each spell. By offering realm-alignment as a mastery option, suddenly you get a single ability driving the botch reduction. Granted, there's an opportunity cost in that you don't get to choose another mastery option, and the alignment could be limited to a single aura type per option, but it may still be too much. It severely reduces the incentive to increase your mastery level: all you have to do is to pick that option for the circumstances you are most likely to find yourself in when casting that spell and you're done, cranking up realm lores being more cost-effective.

16

My plan is reduce botch dice in the chosen aura by the mastery level.

So casting a spell under otherwise ideal circumstances in a level 4 infernal regio would normally use 9 botch dice. If the character has level 3 mastery in the spell they'd be down to 6 botch dice. If the character has mastered the spell for casting in infernal auras they'd be down to 3 botch dice. I don't think that this is too strong.

17

OK, treated that way I agree with you.