Help with an enchantment

Hi out there, I am planning to build a device which is able to connect two ends of wire in a fashion as if they were never cut apart.
Yet I am unsure about the level of such a device. It is clearly ReTe with a Mu requisite or vice versa (MuTe with Re requisite). I thought of BL 2: move dirt in a slightly unnatural way, +4 magnitudes for targeting base metal, +1 magnitude for Range: Touch, +1 magnitude for the requisite and 10 levels for unlimited uses per day, resulting in a level of 30, which seems pretty high… Any suggestions?

I want to use this device (pliers of strong chain) to build chain mail. This way productivity will be faster and the rings have no weak spot, where they could easily split. To translate this into game terms I propose that the productivity of a workshop using this device is doubled when producing chain mail. Additionally the work shop total increases by 3 points when working on chain mail. Thus an armourer who normally produces standard items is manufacturing superior items instead. Superior items will become excellent item when this device is used while producing them. Do you think these bonuses are appropriate?
OK, considering this, level 30 does seem appropriate…
Thanks for helping out.

No problem :laughing:

You might also be interested in using Rego Craft magic, from City and Gild

I think this device is level 20, because you only have to add 2 magnitudes for affecting metal, not 4!

Firstly I am wondering why you seem to think that a Mu requisite is involved? There is nothing in the joining of two ends of the same ring of metal that is contrary to the essential nature of the object. Mu is only required when changing the composite structure of the material into some other meterial (iron to gold, silver, wood, stone, etc.). In this case there is none of that, merely a fusion of the same material. This would be entirely a ReTe effect.

Secondly it could debated that there is nothing essentially unnatural about splicing two ends of the same metal ring together, else it would not be possible for mundane craftsmen to do it. That said, I suppose I can see some justification in your approach since you are seeking a "seamless" join. Fair enough, base 2 works.

Now, going from "controlling dirt" to "controlling metal" is only +2 mags not +4. You could perhaps add +1 mag for complexity, but that is a subjective call I would say.

Next, your tongs/pliers are only fabricating sections of the overall mail suit at any time so I would call the Target "Part" rather than Individual as you seem to be doing. Touch for range is a no brainer, of course.

Thus by my calcs, I see it as ReTe Base 2, +2 Metal, +1 Touch, +1 Part, +10 levels Unlimited uses/day for a final level 20.

Some SGs might say that the seamless aspect necessitates a Cr, rather than Mu requisite in which case a further mag might be damanded still bringing the effect in at 1 mag less (25) than your original estimate.

A counter to this argument would be that typical mundane fabrication methods for medieval mail involved solid rings (made from punching the solid ring out of sheet iron) along with riveted rings. Thus the seamless ring was not unknown. Also Cr would require use of vis which would deny use of the device to most if not all mundanes. (see "Manufacture" section)

Either way the effect levels are valid.

sorry double post

Oh well, not really. I already have to increase so many abilities (Philosophy, Craft, Cult Lore: Verditus, Leadership). So I do not want to spent many points on Finesse as well. The device will be handled by my workshop-companion who also acts as my bodyguard. This way he can make fine cain mail while I work on different projects.

Oh well, I had this image in my head of metal becoming soft, then forming the junction. But you are right: Rego will do the job. It is magic after all!
Where do you get the +2 magnitudes for metal from. I found only the section in Terram which states, the ranking of terram related material. It reads: each step does not necessarily relate to one magnitude. In fact to create dirt is base level 1 and creating metal base level 5 (hence the 4 meanitudes I used).[/b]

Obviously you were looking at CrTe and not the ReTe guidelines, then. Creating something from nothing and controlling what already exists are two very different tasks. :wink:

page 155 ReTe:

"...Add one magnitude for controlling stone or glass, and two for metal or gemstones..."

if you only use rego then it wont be permanent, the muto is needed to soften the metal, and then you "mundanly" squish the ends together so they wont come apart.

Could also consider using muto to make part of a punched ring "gaseous", interlock them then let resolidify

Where in the world do you get that idea??

If you cast a momentary ReTe spell to place two rocks one on top of the other, do you think they will somehow revert to their original locations when the spell wears off? Nonsense.

If anything, use of Muto is what would be temporary since Muto is clearly stated as being temporary. Notwithstanding this, I refer back to the earlier comment about joining two ends of the same material composition together as being wholly consistent with the essential nature of the material/object and thus purely Re. Muto is only necessary to change essential nature.

Since the join is being done magically there is no need to "soften" the metal first (as with mundane forging methods), the rings would simply be fused by the spell and thereafter remain that way. With any Muto effect the spell would have to be continuous for the lifetime of the armour in order for it to remain intact.

As I see Rego, it controls the movement and such, while the spell is in effect. Muto controls the physical properties, also while the spell is in effect.

Using rego to place one rock on top of the other, might or might not leave the rock there, depending on how it is placed. By placing it in a position it could 'naturally' (for lack of better word) stay, it will stay. If placed hanging partly over the side, it will fall. It is a question of whether the rock can balance or will revert to it's natural place, which is somewhere stable, be it balanced on anothewr rock, or the ground below.

IMHo fusing together the two ends of wire, to make an unbroken ring should be Muto. The metal is temporarily fluid or gaseous, and flow together as a single object. If the two ends of rung are viewed as being cut or broken (after all, it came from a length of wire, and was cut), Creo would also be suitable to "repair" the damage, which the unjoined ends could represent. Rego would only be used, to bend the wire into rings in the first place. Were they made by hand, and magic only needed to join them, Muto would be my bet.

I see your argument, but I still disagree. You still seem to misunderstand the concept of "essential nature". It is not contrary to the essential nature of an iron ring to be fused together. Neither is it outside the scope of Rego to control the solidity of an object (as witnessed in some of the higher level ReTe spells "The Forgiving Earth" and "The Unyielding Earth"). Having said that, I again argue that since this is a magical process, no such softening of the metal would be necessary, merely a magical "command" (as you will) to fuse together. Momentary and permanent.

All in all, the effect of creating a solid unbroken ring is one which is (and more rightly WAS) within the capability of mundane craftsmen as far back as the period in which Ars is set. True their method for such was not by the same process, thus I point you to page 93 of the core rules under Verditius Magic wherein it states:

Now given that "shaping materials" encompasses all aspects of material control (including fusing, joining, twisting, etc.) the standard means for most Veriditii is to use Rego magic, not Muto. The final form simply must be able to sustain itself without magic (which it could never do with Muto anyway). Since an iron ring fused together would be a wholly natural condition for the iron, no Muto is required and the final ring would be self sustainable in its new state. Think of it, if you must, as "moving" the two ends of the wire together so far as to actually rejoin even though this less about "movement" and more about "control".

If it was deemed absolutely irreconcilable for a particular SG, though, I would suggest that one simply add an Ignem requisite to the device effect to heat the clamping end of the tongs to a sufficient heat to soften the iron ring. This would solve all issue I suppose.

Nice points, I stand corrected. The scope of those ReTe spells mentioned actually do a lot of what I attributed to Muto.
I would also let Muto be able to do the same effect, but it might be a higher magnitude, since it is essentially taking the long route. But for someone with suckingly bad Rego, and a fair Muto, this would be preferable. I see this as yet another effect, which can be made by several different arts. Kudos to Ars for making such a flexible and interesting magic system. I still think it culd be fudged to eb a Creo spell as well, as I mentioned in my previous post. But, Rego would by far be the best and easiest bet.

Simple solution, just Muto your Muto Art into Rego and problem solved :wink: lol.

Verditius magi may also forge items from raw materials as part of the process of enchantment...This does not require any Craft ability...and the final form may be impossible to make by mundane means...

You would use almost all the Techs in this case. Sometimes you would need to make a hole, sometimes patch it. Sometimes you might need to bend something, others you might need to change its consistancy to get them together...Muto would work for some, Rego others, and Perdo for some. In a pinch you might have to create the item with Creo and then shape it...(shrug)...

If you wanted to get overly particular I suppose you could say that. In most cases I have ever seen, "Shaping" a device (esepcially without a Craft ability) has been considered solely a Rego activity. The making of a hole doesn't require perdo, just control of a material outwards from a centerpoint (i.e. an opening.

Creating any meterial with Cr, however is a matter requiring its own prior dedicated season making the specific spell necessary. This is not something I would classify under "shaping a device as part of the process of enchantment". As I see it, that simply means taking all exisitng material components of the device and "fashioning them together by means of Rego into the finished product" (comparable to what the mundane blacksmith, Jewler, Goldsmith, etc would do by mundane means, only better, easier and faster).

Another subjective judgement call I suppose.


A rule I apply, broadly taken from Covenants, is:

If it can be done by mundane effort, it is Rego, otherwise it is Muto.

So, actually making a completely unbroken circle with no join isn't Rego, but efficiently and perfectly welding the two ends of the wire together is.

Placing one rock on another is Rego, but putting one inside another is Muto.

Muto could momentarily soften the iron to be like putty, which can then be formed into a ring. When the spell ends the putty turns back into metal - hey presto! an unbroken circle. This would be base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Metal - MuTe 10, in my opinion. Base 3 is appropriate because a metal which is malleable at room temperature qualifies as 'slightly unnatural', given that this same guideline can turn earth into water.

Enchanted into a pair of pliers, the jaws of the pliers are placed around the open ends of the wire, and crimped close, triggering the effect. When the jaws are opened again, the ring is welded. This will greatly improve the efficiency of an armour-maker.

All my opinion, of course, but supported by the rules.



Yes Mark, I see the validity of the argument. It does echo much of what I said although you do differ from my original argument in deeming an unbroken ring to be unnatural.

Perhaps I'm fudging where I should not for sake of a minor rules point, but since the link I provided points to medieval mail consisting of spliced and unbroken rings (albeit admittedly from a different ringmaking process), the notion of an unbroken ring to my mind is wholly within the scope of mundane capacities.

In the end there is no great problem adding a separate Muto effect if that is how some SG's would rule. As previously suggested, one could just as easily achieve the same with an additional Ignem req in the main effect or a separate smaller ReIg effect triggered as with your Muto alternative.

Just goes to show how well this system caters to differing tastes. :wink:


Of course you wouldn't need Perdo to make a hole...but if you had too much material, you could remove what you wanted...with Perdo. As for creo, correct, not really. But.... You might use creo to make the lump of Gold, then use Rego/Perdo/Muto to make the desired item out of the Gold. You would therefore be using just about everything. You might even use intelligo to sense the strength of the material and to find weak points...working it until its as strong as it can get...

In that process 1/2 of the rings are punched (solid circles) and the other 1/2 are welded or rivited. for the time A unbroken ring was possible, having 2 or more interlocking, unbroken, rings was not viable.

I like Mark's suggestion since I see no natural way to fix the ends together that could be copied with out using muto.