Help with Mysteries Virtues

I'm creating a Maga with mystery virtues in the TMRE.
Acording to the Virtues and Flaws Guidelines in the ArM5 37 a Magi cannot have more than one Major Hermetic Virtue, but the Cabal Legacy Flaw allows the character to start with Mystery virtues.
My question is, can i have more than one Major Hermetic Virtue like Secondary Insight and Philosophic Alchemy (major), or i'm still limited by the ''You may not have more than one
Major Hermetic Virtue'' rule?

1 Like

If it was a character at gauntlet, I'd limit it to one Major Hermetic virtue - in any case, most cults don't start with major virtues, so it's unlikely an apprentice would have progressed to them.

If the character was significantly post gauntlet, the SG might want to allow it depending on the rules they're setting for post gauntlet advancement - it's certainly possible to be initiated into multiple Major Hermetic Virtues, but whether it's appropriate for a character at the start of the saga will vary. Philosophic Alchemy in particular will push up the power level significantly.

1 Like

The "You may not have more than one Major Hermetic Virtue" rule is a limit for character creation. Your character generally should not have progressed very far into their mystery cult by the time they finish their apprenticeship.
The flavour of the mystery cults gets lost if people start off having initiated most of the virtues and done most of the quests. The mysteries add most to the game if your character actually gets to play through the different stages of their cult.

1 Like

TMRE (The Mysteries Revised Edition) p.20 box Cabal Legacy requires, that the character entered a Mystery Cult already existing in the saga. It is up to the troupe and previous play, which Mystery Cults exist in a saga. Certainly not all the many cults written up in TMRE are available to starting magi in every saga, and cults designed conveniently by players might neither.

Now let's assume, that the Order of the Green Cockerel exists in your saga. Then initiation into the Major Mystery Virtue Philosophical Alchemy would make the starting magus a sixth degree Pelican (TMRE p.46). This means, that he was initiated into the preceding five degrees before, and thus received before - and paid during character creation - five specific other Minor Virtues. That would be a pretty extreme character for your troupe to approve.

Otherwise, a SG would have to design a starting Mystery Culf from scratch in the saga. Will he do this to accommodate your character? Will the troupe agree?

Anyway, the character you plan will be specific to a saga and subject to specific troupe approval. Compared to that, it is a minor issue, whether the Major Mystery Virtue Philosophical Alchemy counts as a Major Hermetic Virtue during character generation. But look up TMRE p.6 for the secrecy typically required of initiates about Mystery Virtues.

I think that Cabal Legacy trumps the core rules' restriction, but that for a beginning young character this shouldn't be an issue as it is extremely unlikely the cult will initiate him into a Major Mystery, as others have explained above. Although that is up to your troupe/SG to decide, if that works for your saga - more power to you.

If you are creating an old character, that's been through all those cult-ranks and past initiations in his background - then yes, having him start as a high-ranking cult member, complete with a Major Mystery, makes perfect sense.

I'm not contradicting any of the above, but I'm a bit curious about the original question:

You're providing the answer yourself. Strictly speaking, Major Hermetic Virtues are restricted. But Mystery Virtues are not (strictly) Hermetic Virtues. They probably should be, but they aren't.
So why would that restriction apply?

[Secondary Insight, Philosophic Alchemy (major)] only contains a single Major Hermetic virtue.

The core rules does not forbid extra mystery virtues. The post-gauntlet advancement rules are quite open-ended. Although the rules only mentions lab projects explicitly, they are so superficial, that it boils down to house rules.

So the balanced virtues and flaws, like most of the posters have said, apply at gauntlet. After the gauntlet you have to account for the seasons taken for initiation, including quests and other prerequisites, and this is for the troupe to decide.

Essentially every script has to be approved by the SG/troupe. For some, this means that only a certain number of cults exist that would be open to the character, and they have a very specific programme of initiations. Others may allow cherry picking mystery virtues. However, very few would allow just any script. «I found a mystagogue with Cult Lore 12 and Pre +5, so no ordeal nor quest is necessary.» YSMV.