Hermetic economy

[YR7]

All this talk of longevity specialists... the resident longevity specialist in our saga developed longevity potions with lab totals in the early 100s (mine is 117, his 124 IIRC) in just his third decade post gauntlet. (Admittedly, we are in very good conditions - a generous saga of lab work.) As Agnar said, cooperation can increase these totals further. And then there are deep inner mysteries for the really old magi...

The requirements and demand are just not so high IMO for extreme specialists to be so valuable a commodity. By the cannon, few magi live past age 200. To age, you will need to roll 10 or more on dice+200/10-Bonus. Let's say you want to insure yourself against aging on a roll of 12 by age 200: the Bonus needs to be 22.

A rich magus should have -2 in Living Conditions, so we need +20 from the longevity ritual. (I'll ignore the possibility of arranging positive Health modifiers using rules from Covenants.) At +1 per magnitude, that's a lab total of 100.

A lab total of 100 isn't that hard to reach, especially for two old magi working in concert. Take any mediocre expert in the field with a suitable focus, he will likely have something like both Arts at 20 and Magic Theory 11 (that's the hardest to get, I think). Add to that your own stats and those of both or one of your familiars, and you're basically set:
20 Creo
20 Corpus
20 Focus
11 Magic Theory
5 Int (through spells; he's a Creo specialist!)
5 Art
3 Aura
7 your Magic Theory
5 your Int (why buy only longevity potions?)
5 familiar's Int
7 familiar's Magic Theory

108

Room to spare.
That's just one constellation, there are plenty of others. All you really need is a Creo or Corpus or anything-else-appropriate specialist (for the Focus) to spend the time getting his Magic Theory high enough, and you've got the bulk of the needed sum. The reminder isn't that hard to arrange for. And if you're short a few, up your standard of living or your laboratory's Health, or invest some more pawns of vis.
All that assuming longevity is still relevant, which it isn't if you've followed a Criamon path to its repose, or a Merinitia path to faerie, or a nature mystery to become a natural guardian, or (when TMRE comes out) the alchemical path to immortality or the theurgic path to divinity, or the Forest Path to immortality, or...

Sorry, IMO longevity specialists are neat and all, but aren't THAT rare and do not call for SO specialized training and learning.

Yair

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@YR7

A lab total of 100 isn't that hard to reach, especially for two old magi working in concert. Take any mediocre expert in the field with a suitable focus, he will likely have something like both Arts at 20 and Magic Theory 11 (that's the hardest to get, I think). Add to that your own stats and those of both or one of your familiars, and you're basically set:
20 Creo
20 Corpus
20 Focus
11 Magic Theory
5 Int (through spells; he's a Creo specialist!)
5 Art
3 Aura
7 your Magic Theory
5 your Int (why buy only longevity potions?)
5 familiar's Int
7 familiar's Magic Theory

108

Yair

I was going to say that the magical focus appears to be the key to this endevor, but then I considered how low those arts are. In my experience even without puissant/affinity with in creo or corpus an older magus who puts some effort in to this matter could be expeceted to have a tech + form of 25 + 30 rather than 20+20. If our elder magus can mange to get leadership 3 (directing laboratory projects) and acquire an apprentice then he could get the same (higher than needed) total as your example without any applicable virtues.

[YR7]

@Erik Tyrrell

I was going to say that the magical focus appears to be the key to this endevor, but then I considered how low those arts are. In my experience even without puissant/affinity with in creo or corpus an older magus who puts some effort in to this matter could be expeceted to have a tech + form of 25 + 30 rather than 20+20. If our elder magus can mange to get leadership 3 (directing laboratory projects) and acquire then he could get the same (higher than needed) total as your example without any applicable virtues.

Yep. And there WOULD be SOME virtues, in all likelihood.

BTW, in our saga your familiar doesn't count towards the number of lab assistants. So "you can always have one" means "one plus familiar". Under standard ArM5 rules, however, I agree Leadership 4 (or 3 with specialty) would be needed to gain the assistance of 3 assistants, such as the client magus and both your familiars.

Edit: oops, isn't that Leadership 3 or 2 with specialty? I'm in serfdom.
Leadership 4 or 3+1 for adding an apprentice, got it.

[PhiliAtlas]

So, it looks like longevity rituals can be created to get a person to live to be 200+.

Now lets look at the impact of living that long.

For example, every year of longevity gains you 1 point of warping ( see ArMa 5e pg 168 4th paragraph of Constant Mystical Effects ).

It takes 75 warping points to reach a level of 5 in warp points.

If a magus does nothing else to their bodies but longevity and they start longevity at age 35 then they will reach warp of level 5 at age 110 ( likely though it will be much sooner than this ). This means they study no Vim, avoid living in high aura areas, avoid constant effects on their bodies, and powerful magics cast upon them.

It takes 105 warping points to reach a level 6 in warp points or an age of 140 with no additional warping. This is also the start of gaining an additional major flaw for every level of warping.

It takes 140 warping points to reach level 7 ( and another major flaw ) or age 175.

It takes 180 warping points to reach level 8 ( and another major flaw ) or age 215. Twilight time is measured in at least 7 years and a bad failure will likely be longer.

It takes 225 warping points to reach level 9 ( and another major flaw ) or age 260. Twilight time is measured in years plus 7 and a bad failure is going to result in final twilight.

It takes 275 warping points to reach level 10 ( and another major flaw ) or age 310. Final twilight is quite possible without a very good comprehension check.

Reaching a score of 10 warping means adding five major flaws to the character which should make life very strange for the magi that attain that level.

It also means that such elder magi will likely fear most the Creo Vim specialist with some skill in penetration to cast a spell that adds 2 Warping points to their total. They will be left in twilight for years at least and might find themselves in final twilight.

A few years of having a constant effect could dramatically reduce the life of a magi ( 4 years of potential life gone for every year say spent say using a spell like Wizard's Sidestep used constantly to keep you safe ).

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@PhiliAtlas

takes 75 warping points to reach a level of 5 in warp points.

If a magus does nothing else to their bodies but longevity and they start longevity at age 35 then they will reach warp of level 5 at age 110 ( likely though it will be much sooner than this ). This means they study no Vim, avoid living in high aura areas, avoid constant effects on their bodies, and powerful magics cast upon them.

It takes 105 warping points to reach a level 6 in warp points or an age of 140 with no additional warping. This is also the start of gaining an additional major flaw for every level of warping.

Two things. First I'm fairly confident that acquiring warping from studing the art of vim was dropped for fifth edition. (or did you mean does not study from vis?)

Second I (which I am less confident of than the first point) I believe magi are suceptable to twilights instead of gaining warping flaws rather than in addition to gaining warping flaws.

[YR7]

Errrg, isn't gaining V&F for mundanes only? I'd have to check my book, but that's what I remember.
If you're not familiar with it, check out this marvelous piece of analysis on the aging of magi. It concludes a maximum age of 330, with a significant (but small) population reaching 300. I don't really agree with the assumptions, strictly speaking there is no limit for ArM5 magi if they avoid chances to enter Twilight.

[Berengar]

@YR7

All this talk of longevity specialists... likely have something like both Arts at 20 and Magic Theory 11 (that's the hardest to get, I think).

Yair,

a longevity specialist is a specialist exactly because he needs a high Magic Theory score for those rituals affecting elder magi.
And this Magic Theory score is generally hard to come by.

The easiest way for a PC is to start as Bonisagus (hence get Puissant Magic Theory) and then take an Affinity with Magic Theory to boot.
But how many NPCs of this type will exist in canonical Mythic Europe? We know that currently (in 1220) there are 52 Bonisagi, plus perhaps a few others having Puissant Magic Theory - so say 70 with Puissant Magic Theory in all the Order. How many of these can plausibly have another, single, specific Virtue like the Affinity with Magic Theory out of the many, many existing Virtues on top of Puissant Magic? More than 5% would be very unlikely: so we expect about 3-4 magi with these Virtues. If one of these then indeed specializes in Creo Corpus, we have the single high potential magus for Longevity Rituals.

Other magi will have to use decades of study time and lots of Tractatus (and would like to have some Virtue like Book Learner) to bring their Magic Theory up to the levels needed to help those 120 to 150 year old magi in the cases when their rituals give way. And somebody has to give them access to these Tractatus.

Kind regards,

Berengar

[wulfenbach]

YR7: What's the "5 Art" line in your list, from?
I assume the familiar is that of the specialist. I'm not sure yours would help the person you're helping.
I think the familiar of the main mage not needing Leadership is 5e canon, but I can't check.

Getting 5 Int seems to need CrMe semi-specialists and a fair bit of vis, which will be in demand for such purposes; I'm not sure assuming 5 Ints is that reasonable. But I haven't played a full saga yet.

IIRC, yes, the only 5e effect of Vim is to give you a bonus in resisting Twilight, and mages don't get flaws from warping points, though they can from Twilight. I distinctly remember that at Warping 5 mundanes stop getting warping from high auras of that realm, having acquired 2 minor flaws and one supernatural minor virtue. If they get warped anyway they'll start picking up major flaws. But Twilight is how Hermetic magi respond to warping.

But yeah, those CrVi spells for warping points are fun, especially for Criamon wards. You quite possibly can get through, but do you want to risk it? Or as a combat spell: take two minutes struggling, or succumb to the Twilight?

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Berengar

The easiest way for a PC is to start as Bonisagus (hence get Puissant Magic Theory) and then take an Affinity with Magic Theory to boot.
But how many NPCs of this type will exist in canonical Mythic Europe? We know that currently (in 1220) there are 52 Bonisagi, plus perhaps a few others having Puissant Magic Theory - so say 70 with Puissant Magic Theory in all the Order. How many of these can plausibly have another, single, specific Virtue like the Affinity with Magic Theory out of the many, many existing Virtues on top of Puissant Magic? More than 5% would be very unlikely: so we expect about 3-4 magi with these Virtues. If one of these then indeed specializes in Creo Corpus, we have the single high potential magus for Longevity Rituals.

Kind regards,

Berengar

I disagree with the analysis because I start from different premises.

An affinity with an ability is descriptive of having a mind that assimilates and learns information on that particular subject very quickly. apprentices are, in general, fairly young when they are taken in. Magic thery is almost univerally the first rigorus study that they undertake after latin (so that they may be of use in the lab) skill in magic theory would be likely met with more positve reinforcement from their mentor than any other competence, this seems to me to be the sort of environment that would encourage developing minds to adapt themselves particularly well to magic theory and thus develop affinities. I'd put the proportion of magi in the order with an affinity in MT at just about the same proportion that I see it pop up in PC's, around one in six. Virtues and flaws are not equally distributed.

I any case, MT 10 is 225 more experience points than magic theory 4.

A character 80 years out of apprenticeship has had 320 seasons, if 1/3 of these seasons were spent developing spells, enchanting items or other labwork that character would have acquired ~213 exposure xp. I think that an assumption that 1/3 of these points would go towards magic theory is conservative. This leaves 154 experience left to acquire. with an average book quality of 9 this is done in seventeen seasons or less than six years, not decades as you had positied.

The above example is for a character with neither puissant nor an affinitynor book learner. It is for a character who is only 80 years past gauntlet.

I think therefore that there would be significantly more than one potential longevety ritual expert in the order at a time.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@wulfenbach

YR7: What's the "5 Art" line in your list, from?

I had questions about this as well. Is it a lab specialization?

I assumed that among laboratory specializations (general quality art specilizations, activity specializations) 5 points would be trivial to get. In fact, +2 general quality, +3 creo, +3 corpus, +2 longevity rituals for a total of 8 would seem appropriate to me.

[PhiliAtlas]

@Erik Tyrrell

@PhiliAtlas

takes 75 warping points to reach a level of 5 in warp points.

If a magus does nothing else to their bodies but longevity and they start longevity at age 35 then they will reach warp of level 5 at age 110 ( likely though it will be much sooner than this ). This means they study no Vim, avoid living in high aura areas, avoid constant effects on their bodies, and powerful magics cast upon them.

It takes 105 warping points to reach a level 6 in warp points or an age of 140 with no additional warping. This is also the start of gaining an additional major flaw for every level of warping.

Two things. First I'm fairly confident that acquiring warping from studing the art of vim was dropped for fifth edition. (or did you mean does not study from vis?)

Second I (which I am less confident of than the first point) I believe magi are suceptable to twilights instead of gaining warping flaws rather than in addition to gaining warping flaws.

1> Sorry, still adjusting to the changes from 4th to 5th ed. You are correct that 5th ed is exactly opposite then 4th ed in that a Vim score now increases the chance to avoid wizard's twilight where previously it improved the chance of going into twilight.

2> Again, I missed the second paragraph in the section on the effects of warping which specifically says that the only effect from magi is increasing their chance of going into twilight. The rest of the long section on effects of warping refer to anyone else. I find it interesting that the longer more detailed section on effects of warping refer to people that will likely die from age long before suffering from the effects of warping ( it really makes warping less an issue without the gaining of flaws to go with it ).

[Berengar]

@Erik Tyrrell

@Berengar

.... we have the single high potential magus for Longevity Rituals.

Kind regards,

Berengar

... I'd put the proportion of magi in the order with an affinity in MT at just about the same proportion that I see it pop up in PC's, around one in six. Virtues and flaws are not equally distributed.

Just that we can only assume how. Now let's see: if you take 16% out of 70, that's a whopping 11-12 magi instead of my 3-4. How many of these will be interested in CrCo? Likely still only one, but not more than 2. So instead of one 'high potential' you get two. OK, I go with your numbers! 8)

@Erik Tyrrell

I any case, MT 10 is 225 more experience points than magic theory 4.

A character 80 years out of apprenticeship has had 320 seasons, if 1/3 of these seasons were spent developing spells, enchanting items or other labwork that character would have acquired ~213 exposure xp. I think that an assumption that 1/3 of these points would go towards magic theory is conservative. This leaves 154 experience left to acquire. with an average book quality of 9 this is done in seventeen seasons or less than six years, not decades as you had positied.

Which helps only with magi aged 100 years or less. I talked of helping magi aged 120 to 150, hence Magic Theory 12 to 15, hence 115 to 322 experience more.

@Erik Tyrrell

I think therefore that there would be significantly more than one potential longevety ritual expert in the order at a time.

You are aware that there is a difference between a 'high potential' manager (somebody who can reach top management level if she applies herself) and a 'potential' manager (one who might manage a three person group if properly coached for a decade or so)?

Kind regards,

Berengar

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Berengar

@Erik T

A character 80 years out of apprenticeship has had 320 seasons, if 1/3 of these seasons were spent developing spells, enchanting items or other labwork that character would have acquired ~213 exposure xp. I think that an assumption that 1/3 of these points would go towards magic theory is conservative. This leaves 154 experience left to acquire. with an average book quality of 9 this is done in seventeen seasons or less than six years, not decades as you had positied.

Which helps only with magi aged 100 years or less. I talked of helping magi aged 120 to 150, hence Magic Theory 12 to 15, hence 115 to 322 experience more.

Our opinions aren't so far apart after all. My model has a typical older magus geting an impressive potion (ie 100+ lab total) just before they hit the century mark.

Once that potion botches the character is in serious danger of death due to ageing, at that point, they might, boost their magic theory with intense study and repeat the original ritual (or is that not possible due to the increassed vis cost?), seeking out that one magus who has both the arts and the magic theory to help him with a new ritual, looking into some other form of preservation (Alchemy, Theurgy, The Becomming, Immortality of the Forrest, etc.).

But I had imagined that magi just under the century mark were the main procureres of high quality longevity rituals and that these rituals were designd to last them into their third century (barring a botch which is likely to happen first). With this model, exceptional magic theory scores are not needed and the longevity potion expert is still in high demand.

[wulfenbach]

I'm still not convinced that the magic theory vis limit applies to longevity rituals. The season-long lab project is spent researching the ritual, which may be subsequently performed in essentially zero time (relative to lab work seasons) like any other ritual. The vis is spent in the ritual, not the research -- if you do the same longevity ritual again you'll need vis then, right? Adjusted upward for your age.

[Lucius_ex_Verditius]

Hmm...

Starting Char with Magic Theory 4 and Affinity with MT.

Every 10th season he gets a tractatus with an averange quality of 12 für 18 exp.

1/3 of all seasons in the lab with exposure points for 3 per season.

80 years out of gauntlet = 320 seasons = 21 * 18 für Tractati and 105*3 für exposure for 378+315+50 = 753 exp = nearly 17

And a rich labrat with many vis an silverpounds could get tractati with an higher averange quality and spend 50% of all seasons in the Lab making a 20 Magic Theory easy to get.

And if a magi is 180 years out of gauntlet, gets tractati with a quality of 14 (21exp) and 50% labtime he gets 1804 720 seasons = 72 * 21 + 3603 +50 = 1400+1000+50 = 2500 = MT of 30 or more... ok this is an etreme with very good book sources and many vis ect, but it is not impossible and most player magi in my saga push MT every 5th oder 6th season...[/u]

[Berengar]

@Erik Tyrrell

Our opinions aren't so far apart after all.

Indeed. They are very close and both based on the available rules.

There's just this tiny bit of imagination below where we appear to differ:

@Erik Tyrrell

But I had imagined that magi just under the century mark were the main procureres of high quality longevity rituals and that these rituals were designd to last them into their third century (barring a botch which is likely to happen first). With this model, exceptional magic theory scores are not needed and the longevity potion expert is still in high demand.

I, however, imagine that magi beyond the 100 years feel very worried at the thought of sometime (after the SG rolled a really high Aging result) needing a really good Longevity Ritual and not knowing where to ask for it. As these are the influential ones, I also imagine that they will not sit idly worrying, but will support and protect a really good Longevity Master.

Kind regards,

Berengar

[Berengar]

@wulfenbach

I'm still not convinced that the magic theory vis limit applies to longevity rituals. The season-long lab project is spent researching the ritual, which may be subsequently performed in essentially zero time (relative to lab work seasons) like any other ritual. The vis is spent in the ritual, not the research -- if you do the same longevity ritual again you'll need vis then, right? Adjusted upward for your age.

Look it up on ArM5 p. 101: the Vis you spend on the Longevity Ritual can change your Lab Total. So this Vis is used in the lab project for which this Lab Total is generated, and hence is by ArM5 p. 94 limited to 2x your Magic Theory.

Kind regards,

Berengar

[YR7]

@wulfenbach

YR7: What's the "5 Art" line in your list, from?

Some would say senility. Others dementia. Still others would put the blame on the pot I smoked back in 93'.

FYI, "oops" is Hebrew for "oops".

Longevity Rituals are giving me a headache. I'm mulling over them, and will post a new thread shortly.

[Lucius_ex_Verditius]

@Berengar

@wulfenbach

I'm still not convinced that the magic theory vis limit applies to longevity rituals. The season-long lab project is spent researching the ritual, which may be subsequently performed in essentially zero time (relative to lab work seasons) like any other ritual. The vis is spent in the ritual, not the research -- if you do the same longevity ritual again you'll need vis then, right? Adjusted upward for your age.

Look it up on ArM5 p. 101: the Vis you spend on the Longevity Ritual can change your Lab Total. So this Vis is used in the lab project for which this Lab Total is generated, and hence is by ArM5 p. 94 limited to 2x your Magic Theory.

Kind regards,

Berengar

This is the Vis you can use to BOOST your lab total. By this statement I would say your MT score only limits the boost-vis, but not ne lab total für the ritual.
I think of the result of such a lab total as a lab TEXT wich can be used like a CrCo-Ritual so vis use is only limited by your creo and corpus score.

[PhiliAtlas]

I would think that a magi much younger would want to get the longevity ritual done due to the increased cost in pawns to cast the spell with age.

The real limiter for a magi would be the question of whether they were planning to have any children prior to accepting the longevity. If they were not planning on children and accepted sterility at a younger age then they might be as little as twenty-five when it requries but 5 pawns of vis.

The longevity ritual lasts until it fails so why not get it done early.

Waiting until you were close to 100 would require 20 pawns of vis and make it much more difficult. Even waiting until you were 50 would require 10 pawns of vis and take a better magic theory magi to cast the ritual.

The real trouble with the longevity ritual is when it fails and you are around 200 yrs in age because it will be really hard to find someone to fix the longevity ritual at that point.