Hermetic economy

What I came away from this discussion with is the realization that the arts are not so important for a longevity master. Instead it is the Magic theory.

Imagine a therotician Bonisagus book learner who is 100 years past gauntlet. With the Puissant magic theory virtue they might have an applicable magic theory of 14. However they've never really gone in for creo or corpus. This character is 4 years from becomming the longevity master of the order. With reading at 13 points per season, his creo and corpus each go up by over a hundred experience points to respectable levels and his prospective clients provide him with an exceptioanlly well outfitted lab specialized in longevity ritual manufacture (in addition to his personal lab). The rest of his creo corpus weakness is made up for by laboratory assistants and the order has a new supply of lab-total 100+ rituals usable by magi up to 140.

Wait, is it really 1 pawn per every five years of age? The laboratory vis use limit is MT *2 isn't it?

I love ArM5, but sometimes I feel like whoever wrote the rules should have been given lessons on technical writing. They are so imprecise.

What are we to make from the he "Vis Use Limit" (p. 94)?
"The amount of raw vis that a magus may use in a single season is limited to twice his Magic Theory score. The magus cannot successfully integrate any more vis into a single project."

I think it's clear that the amount of raw vis that a magus may use in a single season is not meant to be limited at all. He can cast multiple rituals without running into this rule; this rule is in the the Laboratory chapter and is meant to relate only to laboratory activities. Hence, I suggest a reading of
The amount of raw vis that a magus may use in a Laboratory Activity is limited to twice his Magic Theory score.

The Basic Laboratory Activities section is particularly irritating. It talks about "laboratory tasks" instead of Laboratory Activities, and says "If an activity is based on a Lab Total, the magus needs a laboratory to do it. If it is not, he does not" which is contradicted by the next section on "Creating a Laboratory" and the nearby "Fixing Arcane Connections". Regardless, I suggest that
A Laboratory Activity is any activity described in the Laboratory chapter that requires a season of laboratory work
in accordance with the first paragraph, "... seasons, each of which is enough time to accomplish a single long-term [L]aboratory [A]ctivity".

Now we can finally turn to longevity rituals.
"The ritual takes a season, and culminates in some sort of focus... The Longevity Ritual takes one season to develop and perform... "
so it seems that the Vis Use Limit applies here: to develop and perform the Longevity Ritual you need to spend a season in laboratory work.

Yet also
"You can ... perform the ritual from the old ritual again. This involves simply making a new investment of vis (of an amount based on your current age) but no significant investment in time. You must have the Laboratory Text... from the original ritual to do this, and this is the only benefit from a Longevity Ritual's Laboratory Text."
Clearly, "the ritual takes a season" is inconsistent with the rest and should be read as developing and performing the ritual takes a season, with the development being a seasonal Laboratory Activity and performing the ritual taking but little time.
Even under the unmodified rules, performing it from the original ritual does not require a Season so need not fall under the Vis Use Limit anymore than casting a ritual spell does (although the latter falls under the "Limit on Vis Use in Spellcasting" on page 82).

It can be argued that a Laboratory Activity should be counted as any activity involving a Lab Total, as the text on "Basic Laboratory Activities" implies, opaquely. This I see as a too narrow definition, but even if accepted it isn't clear that performing the ritual from the old ritual again requires a Lab Total. Nothing seems to suggest it - the old Laboratory Text for example doesn't add to your Lab Total as it normally does. The rules are completely silent on the matter. A Lab Total is related to seasonal activities, this is a momentary activity.
I don't agree that performing the Longevity Ritual falls under the "Limit on Vis Use in Spellcasting", however. That applies to spellcasting, there is no indication that performing the Longevity Ritual is spellcasting.

It seems to me that the rules meant to say something like this: developing a Longevity Ritual is a Seasonal Activity that is much like inventing a new spell, requiring no raw vis. The Longevity Ritual must then be performed, which takes (say) a day and requires the raw vis. The amount of raw vis is unbound, there is no intention to limit it much like there is no intention in limiting the amount of raw vis in Vis Transfer (page 94) IMO. The cost in raw vis is supposed to be prohibitive as of itself.

This is by no means a solid conclusion, of course. I think that's what the authors meant to write, but I ain't certain. The rules at any rate are inconclusive, vague, imprecise, and self contradicting. House Rules/interpretations are necessary.

As for what is desirable, which is perhaps more important, I like having Magic Theory matter as per "The Vis Use Limit Applies" camp, but don't like the implication that great potions are gotten at young age as they cannot be made for old magi. All in all, I think the other interpretation (that the limit doesn't apply) cheapens Longevity Potions a bit, but works better.

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Yeah, the base cost is 1 pawn per five years or fraction of your age. I don't know how much boosting vis gets you. And 2xMT, though somewhere a line person suggested some sagas might want to change that to 3xMT; I think that came up in the context of enchantments.

So yeah, 140 years old needs 28 pawns of vis, Creo and Corpus and maybe Vim (confusing paragraph, I suspect relic from 4e where boosting vis was Vim.) So if you side with Berengar about the vis being used as a lab activity then someone would need an MT of 14. If you side with me, they'd just need enough Creo and Corpus to use that many pawns, which shouldn't be a problem except maybe if they try to have all the vis being from a single type.

The book may talk about boost vis adding to the Lab Total, but it's also clear that the end result is a repeatable minimal-time longevity ritual whose repetition will consume the same amount of boost vis, plus a base vis cost varying with your current age. I guess it does say you need the Lab Text and presumably a lab to redo the ritual, but doing so doesn't take a season.

Longevity rituals don't obey exactly the same rules as either enchantments or ritual spells; they're unto themselves, and according to Berklist people, they're probably pre-Hermetic in ultimate origin (in that most magical traditions were said to have some way to increase lifespan.)

No doubt that's an original thought. But shouldn't the author then have clarified the different uses and purposes of the Vis in setting up the ritual, instead of lumping them all together?

Kind regards,

Berengar

Indeed :wink:

Note that performing the ritual from the old ritual again even requires the Lab Text. And a Lab Text is only used when repeating the lab project from which it originated, and when generating a new Lab Total.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Now familiars.

Familiars "can learn Magic Theory and serve as laboratory assistants". That's nice, and seems to establish that your familiar CAN aid another, serving as his laboratory assistant.

In addition, "The total number of assistants that the primary researcher can make use of in one season is limited to his Leadership score (though he can always have at least one). The exception is that a magus with a familiar may always have at least one assistant in addition to his familiar."

As I read this, a magus with Leadership 0 [ignoring specialties] can use his familiar and one other character as assistants. A magus with Leadership 1 or 2 can STILL use only his familiar and one more assistant. A magus with Leadership 3 can use THREE assistants, one of which may (or may not) be his familiar.

IMS, we house rule the last quoted sentence to "A magus's familiar doesn't count towards this limit". So a magus with Leadership 0 or 1 can use the familiar and one more assistant, a magus with Leadership 2 can use the familiar and two more assistants, and so on.

But the original project (the seaosn-long ritual, or developing it by a seasonal activity like you would for a spell or item) is not repeated. The Lab Text doesn't add to a Lab Total like it usually does, it seems to me that this can only be if there is no Lab Total to add to (otherwise, why make the exception?!).

Yair

Essentially the lab project is repeated in a speeded up manner. That speeding up is the only real difference, likely introduced to save an SG's plans for a year's adventures from the frantic struggling of a PC magus whose longevity ritual has just given way unexpectedly. As the Lab Text is used for this speed up, it does not generate a bonus.

To summarize my point of view: I don't really see any motivation to come up with entirely new lab rules for Longevity Rituals because of that.

The 2x Magic Theory limit on vis use in 'single projects' is in the 'Basic Laboratory Activities' chapter of the 'Laboratory' section. Then follow the chapters on the different things to get out of lab projects: 'Spells', 'Enchanted Items', 'Similar Spells', 'Longevity Rituals', and finally 'Lab Texts'. So that limit would apply to all 'single projects' in the subsequent chapters, unless overridden for some explicitly.

But there is no such override for the project to create or recreate a Longevity Ritual, which is also in most other aspects just a normal lab activity applying the rules of the 'Basic Laboratory Activities' chapter.
The project has a Lab Total, the vis used in the project even modifies that Lab Total, making clear that the vis is used in the project and not afterwards.
The project also generates a Lab Text, needed to exactly repeat it. When you repeat the project according to the Lab Text, like for any other repetition of a project described in a Lab Text you again generate a Lab Total and again use vis.
As already said above: The only difference to other lab activities is that in this special case you do not receive a bonus from the Lab Text, but speed up the project instead.

Kind regards,

Berengar

I consider the rules not clear on the mater. It is not clear whether the "single project" includes a rebrewing of a Longevity Ritual, IMO. LR do follow different rules from other projects, and it is not clear IMO whether they fall under the "single project" in the Limit on Vis Use. Your interpretation is certainly valid, but so is the other.

At any rate, under The Limit Does Apply interpretation of longevity mechanics, magi would get high-level longevity rituals at a fairly young age. This will probably fail them once or twice in their lifetime. When these failings will be at old age, they will have a problem, needing a Magic Theory specialist with a reasonable Creo Corpus Lab Total and perhaps a decent Leadership to concut another Longevity Ritual for them. Luck and other paths to immortality should lower the number of those knocking on such experts' doors, but under TLDAi yes, there is a need for a considerable amount of specialization to service old magi.

In my reasoned opinion (and experience) the MTx2 Limit to vis use for ordinary lab activity is too stifling and should be changed to MTx3 as the new default. Characters with Faerie Magic should also be limited to (Faerie Magic + Magic Theory) x 3 as long as all of the vis used is faerie in origin.

I also believe that performing a Longevity Ritual should be wholly extempted from the Magic Theory vis use limit. Even with the new, less restrictive limit, it would be far too curtailing on the characters' lifespan otherwise. Mages who develop their CrCo arts to a decent amount or pay a good longevity specialist should be expected to see the end of their seconf century without too much hassle, by relying on ordinary hermetic Longevity Rituals. The typical, expected means of demise for an Hermetic mage should be either violent death on adventuring or Final Twilight, not old age. And the exotic Mystery immortality methods (Alchemy, Theurgy, the Becoming, Immortality of the Forest, etc.) should only be really needed by mages who want to see their third or fourth century and sport a lifespan as long as the Order's one (well, until Final Twilight eventually claims them, actually).