Hermetic Geometry : Arcane Ring and Arcane Circle

Hi every one !
I need your help for understand and find a utility to Arcane Ring and Arcane Circle.
Arcane Circle is a new Target ok. If I understand well it work like this :

Circular ward against demon Rego vim level 20 Range : Touch Duration : Ring Target : Arcane Circle (Equivalent to Part +1) Emprison demon with might of 15 or less
My magus trace a perfect circle on the ground, calculate the target point, incante the spell and i trace the circumferance of the ring in the same time, and after this a new circle appear at the calculate point and emprison the demon.
Did i uderstand well ?
Other example :

Circular ward against demon Rego vim level 20 Range : Touch Duration : Arcane Ring (Equivalent to Moon +3) Target : Circle Emprison demon with might of 15 or less
My magus trace a perfect circle on the ground, calculate the target point, incante the spell and i trace the circumferance of the ring in the same time, and after this a new circle appear at the calculate point and emprison the demon.
What is the difference between Arcane Ring and Arcane Circle ?
In the book

the paragraphs are exactly the same. Any utility to use both Arcane Ring and Arcane Circle ? I don't think.
The only example of Arcane circle is the

and it's that :

ReCo 20 R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Arcane Circle A variant on a warding theme, this spell cast with an Arcane Circle target both imprisons people within its bounds and prevents them from crossing into the Arcane Circle. The Arcane Circle target is usable by those who know the Hermetic Geometry Mystery, and allows the caster to draw a circle at his location while calculating and casting against a sympathetically identical circle in a remote location (see The Mysteries Revised Edition, page 95).
And the level calculation is false. Base 15 +1 Touch +2 Ring +1 Arcane Circle = Level 35
Your advices, corrections and explanations are welcome !
Thanks all !

The purpose of (TMRE p.96) T: Arcane Circle and D: Arcane Ring is, to cast Circle/Ring spells over a distance - that is, with a range larger than R: Touch. Hermetic Geometers like to use R: Line with it, but R: Sight or R: Arcane Connection make also sense.

If you talk about having to "calculate the target point", this implies R: Line. Does this resolve your problem?


Just a guess.

The ring spell lasts until the ring is broken. The Arcane Circle spell lasts a month.

Not quite.

I think however, that by shooting into the dark we both just try to figure out, what it is that Dracien de Bonisagus does not understand about Hermetic Geometry. The working of ArM5 targets and durations in general? The working of Arcane Circle and Arcane Ring in particular? Or just the MoH p.101 example spell Remain within Those Walls?

Remain within Those Walls is an unfortunate example to figure out Hermetic Geometry with. It really looks weird, as it omits to explicitly specify, what the "sympathetically identical circle" to the one drawn at its casting and implied with T: Arcane Circle is.
After reading it thrice it appears to me, that its author meant to draw two active circles at once: one facing inward and keeping people in, and the other facing outward and keeping other people out. But this is not how T: Arcane Circle is described in TMRE.

EDIT: Here's another example spell which - I think - works far better to explain Hermetic Geometry.

Ring of Sleeping Beauties ReMe 35 (R: Line, D: Arcane Ring, T: Arcane Circle)
This spells puts to sleep all within a circle sympathetic to the one drawn by the caster, while they remain within it.
(Base 4, +3 Line, +3 Arcane Ring, +1 Arcane Circle)
It avoids the problem of T: Room spells requiring a room for a target, and can beat D: Moon spells for duration. The spell's victims cannot leave the ring and will hence remain asleep, until someone first detects the magical circle around them with Second Sight, InVi spells or similar means, and then destroys it.
This is a good way to dispose of large bands of brigands approaching the Geometer's tower, but spotted by the watchful guardsman atop of it in time. It doesn't expose the Geometer to sniping. Just yelling at or shaking those sleeping does not wake them up - but it sets up those trying and spotted for another Ring of Sleeping Beauties. While the Geometers' grogs, once they feel safe and sally out to dispose of the brigands in any way the Geometer decided, need not fear its magic.


Hi all !
I think i understand why arcane circle and arcane ring have the same explanation. It is possible, theorically, to have a duration of arcane ring and a target not circle. And a target of arcane circle and a duration different of ring. You can target a structure with a duration of arcane ring. And you can cast a spell with a duration of moon and a target of arcane circle.
Conclusion you don't need to have a spell with arcane circle and arcane ring.
For the spell in Magi Of Hermes pages 101. It's normal that someone inside can't go outside the circle and people outside could not penetrate to go inside the circle.
With this the spell in the book is more clear. The Magus trace a perfet circle on the ground, he calculate the target point. He don't need to see the point he only need to perceive the target point.
He can use ears, smell... He incant the spell (15 minutes by magnitude of the spell). It's very long... And a new remote perfect circle of the same size appear at the target point. The circle is invisible.
unless for Intellego Vim or Second sight. Perfect for traps !
The target point is the center of the arcane circle or ring.
But with the range of Line the magus could be far away of the target of the spell.
Your spell Ring of sleeping beauties could be like this :
Base 4 +3 Line +2 Ring +1 Arcane Circle, or Base 4 +3 Line +3 Arcane Ring +0 Circle, Level 30.
It take 90 minutes to incant. Anyone who enter in the invisible circle fall asleep. And asleep he can go out to wake up. Very funny !
Your opinion ?



Note: an Hermetic Geometry spell does not need to be a ritual. The computations for the Hermetic Geometry R/D/T-parameters (TMRE p.95 box Distance Level and formula besides) take only some 3 to 7 rounds - that's 18 to 42 seconds (ArM5 p.172).


None of these would work. T: Circle specifies

while D: Ring specifies

And you wish to use a sympathetic second circle both for the Target and the Duration.

This is very problematic. You need to get your troupe to read

in such a way, that "at the time of the casting" refers only to "drawn by the magus", but not to "everything within a ring". This would then lead to CrCo T: Circle rituals kept in your campaign, that for years heal all the people stepping into the circle. I reckon that you don't want that.


*: All the underscores in quotes are mine.

IMO, the Arcane ring/Circle guidelines probably aren't worth the minor virtue that they cost. While there are some circumstances in which they are useful, It's probably more useful to invest in MuVi, and build a "translate Ward into Arcane Ward" effect - otherwise, you end up having to learn all your circle/ring spells at +2 magnitude difficulty. Which, for most Circle/Ring effects, is probably a seriously inhibition.

Nah - I just consider Arcane Ring/Circle to be fluff text. It's the other fiddly bits that come with it that (arguably) make it worth it: +3 to circle magic (which is the same bonus you get from a Potent Magic minor virtue on its own), and an automatic Ceremonial Casting mastery for any spell that has geometry in it (which is one of the few Mastery abilities you'd want for Circle/Ring spells). For warding specialists, those two bonuses alone make it a decent contender - along with Cautious Concentration (for casting large circles).

The best, of course, is probably a MMF related for warding, or else the Columnbae Warding minor hermetic virtue (if you can cajole your GM to letting you build your own Hedge tradition that doesn't have the Columbae's hideous Major Hermetic Flaw, of course.)

As a GM, I'd probably allow anyone with Hermetic Geometry to cast their circle/rings as Arcane Circle/Rings without the increase in difficulty, and without having to actually design new spells. (As otherwise they'd never get used.) The benefit of being able to use Circle/Ring spells offensively is somewhat balanced by the fact that you need to aim them; however, I prefer a high-powered game, so YMMV.

Having a magus change spells with MuVi into others, that require Virtues he does not have, needs some serious Nomic with your troupe.

To me, Hermetic Geometry appears to be a nice Minor Virtue for a scholarly magus who needs more uses for his good Artes Liberales, and for a player inclined to "magical engineering", i. e. problem solving by cleverly adapting or improvising magic on the spot. Arcane Ring and Arcane Circle are just features in that package.


Hello One Shot
Hermetic Geometry use the rules of ceremonial casting. 15 minutes per magnitude. If you want to fast cast the spell, we can forget it.

It is true for standard Ring/Circle spell.

With Hermetic Geometry we can affect a remote circle/ring with sympathetic connection. The magus trace a circle, he incant the spell, calculate the target point and
the remote sympathétic identical circle "appear" at the calculate point and the spell take place at this circle (which is invisible). The remote circle don't need to pre-exist.
With a range of touch the magus touch the first circle he traces during his incantation (like normal ring/circle spells) and with the sympathetic connection the spell affect everyone into the remote circle.
I think it is the only way to explain the only example in Magi Of Hermes p101. Unless the author comes to us.
You can affect a remote circle with arcane ring or arcane circle i think. If you need arcane ring and arcane circle you will have +2 magnitudes compare to standard ring/circle. The bonus of +3 to the incantation will not be very usefull. Add the rules of ceremonial casting and the virtue will not be very attractive.
The range Line could be use with any target and duration...
I think the virtue is not clearly explain with only one exemple with false calculation.
With your help I think i understand better this virtue.

No. It can use these rules, which for formulaic spells is a boon. But it needs not. Best reread TMRE p.94 Ceremonial Figures.

All quite true.

R: Touch means - see ArM5 p.111 Touch - that a magus needs to touch the target. The sympathetic connection to a remote circle does not provide a second range to add.

Indeed. With D: Arcane Ring you can use a remote circle to define the spell's duration, and with T: Arcane Circle you can use a remote circle to define the spell's Target. The range of the spell is - as for any other spell - still defined by its range parameter.


Ah - I meant if someone has the Hermetic Geometry virtue, they shouldn't bother actually designing spells that use Arcane Ring/Circle. Instead, they're probably better off learning normal Circle/Ring spells, and then use a major MuVi effect to translate those spells into their Arcane versions.

However, that does require a lvl 40+ MuVi lab total, which may not be everyone's cup of tea.

I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


You're right One Shot

May use is not an obligation. Only if you want to benefit the bonus +3 to casting score.


If you can put in some added casting time, Ceremonial Casting (ArM5 p.83) also adds your Artes Liberales and Philosophiae scores to your casting total. On top you then can also get further bonuses - up to +5 - from props (HoH:S p.59), and reduce your casting time significantly again - from 15 minutes down to 1 minute per magnitude - with prepared ceremonial spaces (HoH:S p.59f) or the Hermetic Minor Virtue Mystical Choreography (HoH:S p.56).
Especially for Hermetic Geometers with their typically decent scores in these abilities, and a penchant for casting from perfectly regular chambers in their labs (TMRE p.96f), these are boons not to be scorned.
Usually a maga needs to separately master each non-ritual formulaic spell she sometimes wishes to cast ceremonially (TMRE p.38).


Yes the rules of ceremonial casting. Thanks for remind me that.
For the mastery ceremonial casting : you add your mastery ability score to the Casting total ?
What is your advice of this spell :

Invoke the necessary components of the geometer Creo Terram (aquam, herbam) Range : Touch Durée : Sun Cible : Ind You invoke minerals and purified metals in powder (précious ans non precious) with pure water, oil and incense. Things needs a geometer for ceremonial casting. Base 15 +1 touch +2 sun +1 herbam +1 aquam Level 40
Not easy to travel with all components.

Yes. See ArM5 p.86.

The spell is OK. Its base is that high, because you create some precious metals among the other stuff.

You could consider splitting it up. One formulaic CrTe 30 R: Touch D: Sun for the valuable Terram components, one spontaneous CrHe 4 R: Touch D: Sun for the Herbam components, and one spontaneous CrAq(He,Te) 5 R: Touch D: Sun to create the water, oils and solvents in existing bottles. Thus you get basically the same result with less lab seasons.


Yes good idea. I will do that and post the spells tonight.
My magus could not cast spontaneous spells.

Personally, as a storyguide, I'm not sure that I would allow magically-created items to provide a bonus to ceremonial casting, unless they are created by a ritual.

My initial position is that such items have their own magical energy, which interferes with the delicate nature of ceremonial casting. They don't resonate with the natural world.

I would agree. But we are not talking HoH:S p.59 props here, but just the stuff to draw TMRE p.94 Ceremonial Figures for spells over sixth magnitude with.

To me this does look like means to enrich the process of drawing the figures, not to resonate - like the props - as material with the casting.


It seems to me that what TMRE p.94 describes is simply standard Ceremonial Casting as done with Hermetic Geometry (which provides an additional bonus), so I don't see why it would be different.