I think I'd try to go back to something more akin to 4e. Drop the spell spirit parts from the Hermetic Theurgy virtue and add in the (useless on its own) Names of Power ability to make a starting virtue for the path. Reintroduce Thaumaturgy ala 4e Mysteries with CrVi to create spell spirits. Makes this a Major Virtue and beef the effect up to be a little bit awesome, as I believe the 4e version was, rather than the deeply "meh" 5e spell spirits.
Rules on this would be useful too but I don't think a new Virtue should be required. Vanilla Hermetic Magic should cover this.
Yep, most of this would just be rules that normal Hermetic wizards can use. Still, a Minor virtue could improve your ability to summon "spell spirits" by e.g. allowing you to summon airy spirits without an arcane connection/sensing them, while still using Rego instead of Creo to get that whole "summoner" vibe. Other than that - yes, certainly, Hermetic magic should be able to summon and command airy spirits, and the Hermetic theurgy virtues should just be working with that to add more oomph and options on top of that.
Hm. Lost me a bit on this one - it can. (RoP:M, pg. 111). Did you mean spell spirits? If that's the case, I could arguably see that, but that brings us back to the "what is a spell spirit?" question. But in general - sure. I'm all for actually making these virtues more interesting, as I think we can all agree they're more than a bit blah.
Yeah. Bad phrasing on my part. I just meant to highlight the idea that the theurgy virtues should work with what Hermetic magic can already do, namely summon airy spirits. But add in extra oomph and capabiltiies on top of that.
Another quick question. When you 1st summon your Daimon, it says you need to pierce the MR ("The first time the spirit is called, it will resist and the caster must overcome its Magic Resistance. TMR p.80)
Hermetic Theurgy works as written, except that....
It is a Major Virtue
There is no casting roll. You call and the spirit comes. Its power might be insufficient in an adverse Aura.
There is no spell spirit. The entity granting the power is a daimon, to whom you have already devoted at least a season of your life; the value of the time you spent is sufficient because you have sufficient Lab Total:
** The power is therefore not lost if the "spell spirit" is killed, because you'll get another one when you next use the power.
** Any number of magi can therefore use the same name at the same time.
If you become a Daimon yourself, the power becomes your own:
** You do not have to spend a round calling on some other Daimon but can just do it yourself at no cost.
** You can grant the power to someone with Hermetic Theurgy (or the equivalent) who offers the appropriate sacrifice (or the equivalent). The benefit to you equals the magnitude of the power.
As usual, a Major Magic Focus with spirits applies to your lab total.
The entire Theurgy path is similarly cast to be explicitly all about Daimons, which it already mostly is.
Am I right to think that Theurgy magic needs to have a level higher than the level of a hostile Aegis to work? i.e, the might of the "spell summon" needs to be higher than the Aegis.
I can't think of any reason why Theurgy wouldn't be affected by the Aegis. However, it's not the level of the theurgic spell that is affected, it's the Casting Total.
William is in a hostile Lvl 20 Aegis that affects him and casts a level 15 Invoke the Spirit (Spell) with over 20 penetration in both the Theurgy spell & the casting of it.
A) The Spell Spirit which has a might of level 15 is blocked by the level 20 Aegis as it is a form of Summon that Summons the Magical Creature from outside the Aegis. Spell fizzles.
B) The Spell Spirit is summons and casts his spell successfully. Spell would fizzle in a level 21+ Aegis as the spell the Spirit casts has zero pen.
C) The Spell Spirit is invoked but stays out of the Aegis, trying to affect the target from the outside
Do 'Invoke the Spirit of the spell' Spell need to beat your own casting total when doing meta magic such as wizard boost? Or are we considered cooperating?
If the summoned spell spirit actually can cooperate with another spell in the following round, it actually is a perk as the magus doesn't need to roll for concentration due to casting two spells at the same time.
It depends on how you visualise the summoned spirit appearing - does it appear from wherever it normally resides in Mythic Europe, or is it summoned from somewhere outside the real world? If you're summoning a spirit from somewhere in the world, then surely C) applies - the spirit tries to arrive, can't and is left outside the Aegis. If the spell summoning it has sufficient duration, the spell spirit stays until either the duration of the summoning spell ends or it gets to successfully cast its spell.
If your spell spirit is coming from the spiritual realms that Daimons reside in, that gets trickier - are you really summoning something across the Aegis boundary (in which case C applies) or are you just getting a spirit to manifest so it can cast a spell, in which case B) would apply.
I think C) is the most likely.
Using metamagic such as wizards boost - the problem metamagic has to be matched specifically to the sort of magic being used. If you use wizards boost, you are boosting your Hermetic spell of a particular form. You would have to make the concentration roll for casting two spells at the same time and you would be able to affect parameters like duration, but seeing as Hermetic Theurgy spells each affect an individual named spirit just adding 5 levels to the effect of the spell doesn't actually help as the spirit is always the same might - you can't go "I boost my spell of summon the fire spirit Bob, and then boost it so Bob's big brother with 5 extra might appears"
You could create a metamagic spell to boost the spell spirit, so when the spirit arrives you then boost it - the rules for using metamagic on another spellcaster's effects apply, so the minimum range would be Voice.
My thought is that since you can summon a spirit or magical being inside a circle ward to contain it then summoning must not cross the ward boundaries.
I don't believe there's any way the spirit can enter the Aegis, regardless of whether it's being summoned from the mundane world or from the Magic Realm. Keeping out Creatures of Might is a core function of Aegis of the Hearth.
I suspect your option A is the usual outcome but I can see particular circumstances where C would be possible, for example if the caster is standing at the edge of the protected area, looking outward.
Ya... Wondering if my casting total for the summoning supersedes the effect of the Aegis to keep magic creatures out. Normally an Aegis keeps hostile magic out but when penetration total exceeds le level of the Aegis, it is allowed to pass un-hindered. Can this logic apply to my summoned Spell Spirit making B the go to answer?
Metamagic: William has created a level 20 Theurgic Shroud Magic spell pas per Core MuVi book except of Diameter duration . It can hide the sigil of momentary duration spells within voice range of up to level 30. Typically both the meta spell & the target spell need to be cast at the same time but Theurgy magic allows, in this case, two minutes of discussion to tailor the effect. Only question left really is Does the spirit have the ability to magically "cooperate" with the magus? This would save us from the nagging concentration rolls when not in a hurry. Long live the non-twilighting magus
"Gunnar finds himself faced with an angry hedge wizard in town (Divine aura 3). He uses his new spell (losing fatigue, as he only just man-ages the Invocation spell). Nissila has a Casting Total of 20 –(3x3) or 11, which is just enough. The Pilum of Fire Penetration Total is 11 – 20 + 30 = +23. Gunnar is thankful for this new Invoke spell!"
This does not seem right. Let's say the aura was 4, I think the spell would work fine anyway as there is tons of extra penetration left anyway.
I think this is an issue with casting the Pilum of Fire, which has a level of 20. 11 is 'barely succeeding in casting, with fatigue'. If there had been an aura of 4, the casting total would have been 3 lower - only 8 - which would mean Nissila failed to cast the spell. (Failed the casting by >10). I'd also note that the math in the example is wrong: 11-20+30 should equal +21.
I see two primary niches for Invoking spirits. One is to use Invoke the Spirit of (Form) to compensate for weaker spontaneous magic. The other is attempting to leverage the effective two-for-one penetration bonus on Spell Spirits. That said, outside of Major Magical Focus (spirit magic), I don't really have any idea how to mechanically build a spirit magician using those uses of Theurgy - I can see a bit more room for play with Daimons, as I believe all "Invoke the Pact of" effects are ReVi. I'm more of a dabbler than a specialist by nature so spirit magic is a very nice broad magical focus to use with these effects.
I would be curious to see how other people had built their 'spirit magicians'.
It seems the general consensus goes against my expectations here.
I would have expected Option B, which I understood as Successful Summon against the Aegis, and magic spirit is present (inside of the Aegis), but can not act magically (since its Might is 15 within a 20 Aegis.
I would would use the same rules for other summon spells: spirit appears but is limited by being within the Aegis. Infernal summoning, Faeries, and Necromancy. I would allow spirits to act non-magically (advice, normal skills for those with skills).
I agree that the Aegis is suppose to keep spirit (hostile creatures) out, but you should not allow in antagonistic summoners!