HoH:MC Faerie Glamour Question

I'm a litte unclear about the rules concerning glamour. I came to an own interpretation, but maybe I'm (quite) wrong.

The base of glamour spells is always 10.
Duration, target and range are added. (As with Im)
Movements/clear sound etc add one. (As with Im)
Movement under mental command two. (As with Im)
Add size modifiers. (As with Im)

Eg1: The fay hearth fire CrIm(Gl) 35
Creates a glamour like a fire of hearth strength.
Base 10 + 2 (sun) + 0 (ind) + 3 (vision).
Effective lv 35
(Obviously an ignem spell would be much easier)

Eg2: The fay ball of abysmal flame CrIm(Gl) 35
Creates a glamour fireball like the ignem spell.
Base 10 + 0 (mom) + 0 (ind) +3 (vision) + 2 (movement under mental command)
As above.
(Now it would be equally difficult).

Did I get this right? The explanation given is more on the short side. ^^
While it is much more difficult to create a low level effect by glamour compared to the standard forms, it is equally difficult to create a high lv effect?
Or rather: Do glamour spells tend to the same difficulty regardless of the illusion? (Without any form damage guidelines).

Opinion and help would be appreciated. :slight_smile:

Edith says: Switched title :blush:

Edit2: To clearify, I'm speaking of Houses of Hermes : Mystery Cults, House Merinita, Major Mystery Virtue Glamour, page 101.

Is Glamour meant to allow CrIm to substitute nearly all CrForms as far as high level spells go?

So noone ever encountered this "problem" or had a Merinita who tried to initiate Glamour?

Or do any House Rules exist? ^^

I think you are adding magnitudes for Vision when you shouldn't be. The Vision modifier is there to make scrying hard...

So if you wanted to Intellego Imaginem and you were receiving the knowledge through vision, you would add the vision modifier.

So your spell examples should be 3 magnitudes lower. lvl 20 not 35.

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It sounds about right to me.

I would, however, question the need for Mental Command for The Fay Ball of Abysmal Flame".

IIRC, the spell it is based upon "Ball of Abysmal Flame" creates the flame at the Target's location and the ball of flame streaking toward the target is considered purely cosmetic. Plus, IMO Mental Command tends to imply more sophisticated manipulation of the glamour.

Hope this helps,

Edit: In retrospect, Sight Range seems a bit excessive forThe Fay Hearth Fire too, Voice should be moe than sufficient for an indoor spell unless Quiet Casting were necessary for some reason...

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Hmm. Vision should have been Sight, +3. Being the range. I misnamed it, thanks.

Thanks for your comment Gremlin, it is appreciated. Your arguement makes sense... especially with abysmal ball. Incantation of Lightning would have been a better example, But even then it is not really movement under controll. Hmm.

In that case it sounds very powerful... CrIm(Gl) 25 to duplicate CrIg 35. Similar spells in the other 7 forms (barring Im and Men). Doesn't this mean a magus who has initiated Glamour can forgoe all other forms if he keeps to Creo?

Once he has achieved CrIm labtotal of 60 he could invent a spell duplicate lv 30 in any of those 8 CrFo in one season. Or 45 in 3.
I'm not critisizing it (the maga in question is mine), there are other very potent mysteries. I'm only wondering if this was intended.

However my thanks to you both!

I think it is almost too powerful, but learning the mystery always gives the Vulnerable Magic flaw, which can be debilitating.

If you take Iron for instance, your spells will almost always get countered when it's important that they not be.

You also have to be an Imaginem specialist to make use of the mystery, and Imaginem is next to useless, compared to a combat build of another form. This makes the Illusionist actually an Illusionist, because it gives rules to force a gm to have the npc's react to your spells.

Because of the nature of nearly always using requisites with Glamour, is Imaginem specialization actually a good idea?

Glamour is quite often considered one of the most powerful mystery, It's important that the chosen Vulnerable magic flaw trigger is meaningful.

It's also important to remember that this is a Merenita mystery (for the most part )designed for magus following the path of illusion so chances are the magus started as a "vanilla" illusionnist, that's not something you choose at first If you're a warmonger. Later on, when he get's to this mystery, that's just a way to make his tricks more efficient. I don't think glamour is supposed to be a a tool for a magus seeking destructive power. If you read the follower of pendule, if you consider ball of abysmal music, I guess you get the idea of what's suppose to be done with It. Magi of Hermes Scipio also has exemple of glamour spells that you might find interesting.

In the end, power balance is a saga discussion, but your calculation of a CrIm to emulate a CrIg 35 seem legit to me.

Threadmancy on a discussion that was 5.5 years old... Kallista's last logon was in 2011.

And? The topic remains valid since it's not like the rules have changed or it's been discussed really in other threads. The OP's question of whether CrIm requires any Form requisites hasn't been answered, for that matter.

Ho didn't check the date ...

Well, your post didn't attempt to answer the OP, did it? It responded to a specific question from a user who hasn't been on the forum in years, and will likely not see your question on a thread started by a user who hasn't been on the forum even longer. I mean, if you're interested in the answer to the question (or any question not answered back in the day), I think it's best to start a new thread, and you can easily reference this thread (or the relevant thread) for additional context.

My question, whether Imaginem specialization is a good idea for Glamour users in the face of requisite rules, is relevant to any who feel that they're able to answer. If someone else sees another question and feels like they can answer it, whether Kallista is personally involved seems like a tertiary concern on a public forum where others are reading and potentially benefiting from the discussion.

Is there a particular reason you seem more interested in policing your brand of behavior than actually contributing to the conversation? I can't answer that part of the original question (Do CrIm Glamours have Form requisites) because I don't know the answer, and I brought it up then as a reminder of its relevance.

I'd say Gremlin answered the question well enough, already.

To answer your question (on topic one, not the one about my so-called policing, and since the cat's out of the bag...) No, Glamours created (with Creo) do not have form requisites. If you are changing something from or into a Glamour, then you do have to deal with requisites, that's stated explicitly in the Glamour Guidelines insert on page 101 of HoH:MC. I'd say the Fae Ball of Abysmal Flame in the OP is probably set too low, but I would generally stick with the damage guidelines that Ignem is the most efficient and other Forms generally do the same damage at an increased magnitude over Ignem. So the Fay Ball of Flame, recomputed would be Base 10, R:Voice or 20th level, the 20th level Ignem spell is Pilum of Fire and does +15 damage, so this Fay spell should probably do +10 damage. Or leave it the same as the Ignem ranges, because of the Vulnerable Magic Flaw...