One thing that ArM5 got rid of, that I always liked, was a Twilight Scar that allowed greater understanding of an Art, and greater facility to teach it or write about it.
Kind of wishful thinking here, but could that be incorporated somehow? A positive Twilight Scar allowing higher Qualities and/or levels in books written? Or perhaps in the subject taught itself, if not using a book (which would be unusual)? Perhaps doubling the benefit of Good Teacher (or providing it if they didn't have it initially) but only in regards to the Arts, and then further instances of the Scar doubling it again (per the normal multiplication rules). Just throwing ideas out there.
This is one thing I added back in as a House Rule in my saga. I think it took 3-4 successive Twilights getting that result before you could write a Summa at 100% of your Art score. So chances are that if you could write that Level 20 Summa, you were on the verge of Final Twilight already.
I don't have any objection to that. I would think that such increased understanding might limit his ability to decrease the level of his texts in favor of the quality of his text. I don't think that kind of thing was possible in ArM4, and so I'd like to limit it here, if we brought it back.
Yeah, basically it leant well to the idea that age and power and wisdom, and doom really, went hand in hand.
In previous sagas I was in, the Criamon were highly sought after authors, though obviously not all had the right scars, that didn't stop other magi from believing it.
How might it be done then? Basically make it available as a Scar (it'd have to be positive, because as I recall there were negative Scars that did the opposite).
Would we want to limit it to one or both of the Arts that caused the Twilight? Or would it be the Arts in general? Could Magic Theory benefit? Would it increase the level the book could reach, or the Quality, or both? This is the part where I'm not as strong; with formulas being used (new and old) and the potential game balance issues that come in.
My thinking is rather than doubling this or that, it adds a flat bonus to either Level or Quality, similar to the benefits you can get in the Covenants books. If we were to keep it simple, 1 Scar adds +3 to either Level or Quality (not both) and the level cannot exceed your own level. The Scar can be taken multiple times to increase either of these, or if neccessary to add multiple Arts/Subjects.
Conversely, the negative Scar would subtract the same.
So questions that remain. Would it affect all Arts or just the ones in the Twilight? Could it be added to the Arcane Skills (basically just Magic Theory is my thinking)?
Finally, could this Scar be induced, like a Mystery? I could see that as a possibility, it was started by a Criamon maybe, but they felt that it was not meant to be hoarded, but shared with the Order.
I like that Twilight Scar. As for how it worked, I believe the 4th edition rule was that if you got it, you could write up to 2/3, then 3/4, then (I think 5/6, then 100% of an Art. I think it applied to all Arts, since you had to suffer repeated Twilights and get the same Twilight Scar -- very unlikely. Also I remember 3rd and 4th edition making it so that Final Twilight happened after a certain number of Twilight episodes, which was the limiter in trying to undergo Twilight deliberately to get it. However, if we want to restrict it, say, to the Arts involved in the Twilight episode, that could work. It'd mean that the chances of someone writing a great Summa would be extremely rare with this Twilight Scar, because they'd have to undergo Twilight with the same Art and get that Twilight Scar repeatedly.
I like the idea of both the Scar as well as a Mystery that provides it. One is random and risky and the other is deliberate and risky (likely an ordeal of more Warping at the least).
Math wise, not sure if it's easier to have a flat bonus or use the fractional method, I'm easy either way.
I have reservations about this. My understanding with Quality and Level is that Level defined the information that was in the book, while Quality was how well it was written, how well it imparted the information, and the ease of finding a specific piece of information.
I'm having a hard time seeing how (to make up an example), a Level 7 summa on American History, which only has information on the American Revolution and the War of 1812, will suddenly have information on the Civil War if you're studying vis at the same time.
The greater understanding of an art is one of the sample Twilight Scars listed, on p. 89: Increased Knowledge: A number of experience points in an Art, Magic Theory, or Enigmatic Wisdom, equal to twice the number of Warping Points gained.
Pretty much. ArM4, p. 183, the first entry under "Good Effects", had: "Increased understanding: Normally a magus can only write a summa that describes an Art up to half his score. This effect allows the magus to understand his highest Art more clearly, granting the ability to write up to two-thirds of its score (rounded down). The next occurrence of this effect raises the maximum to three-quarters; then five-sixths; and finally, the total Art score. The great magical tomes of the Order have almost all been written by magi who have undergone Twilight and have brought back insights to share with the rest."
I kinda like it. It seems thematic with the saga's orientation.
Is the objection one of style then? That it doesn't fit an aesthetic? The L20Q10 example results in a +2 bonus. And the biggest bonus will probably be +3. These aren't huge bonuses, and it appeals to my sense that no book is ever completely finished. That's not exactly true here, because a L10 book ceases to be useful after level 20. And if one learns from Vis, on average a Q10 book adds a 20% increase when learning from Vis. To get from L10 to L20 will take 15.5 seasons without the book bonus and 13 seasons with the book bonus. A lot of the summae in this saga will be level 10, the initial primers, the Roots will probably be the L5Q15 variety.
No, rereading the proposal, it looks like I had misunderstood what you meant by doubling the level of the summa and what that meant "fluff-text"-wise. So, with the Q10 L10 summa. When studying Vis (and only when studying vis), you can use a summa in conjunction with the vis, and doing so adds Q/5 to the SQ, so the formula becomes Stress Die + Aura Bonus + Summa Quality/5. And one may use summa in conjunction with vis study up to twice the summa's level. This does not (as I had thought) entail additional information being revealed in the summa, but it merely enables the student to notice what he had not before. (A real-world analogy: it wasn't until the third time I had read a book that I realized that one character was related to another, which suddenly made some of the things that were said about them make more sense.)
That is why I would think of it as a Chemistry book as Magic, as done by ArM is closer to a practical science than history or any theoretical science.
The Summa would describe the action of an Art in a situation and experimenting with the vis would lead to practical knowledge of what the book is discussing rather than theory.
Think of it as Harry Potter in the 5th book when Umbridge gave the Defense Against the Dark Arts class a book on theory and expected them to make practical use from it. While actual practice in the art improved their skills.
That's something I forgot to ask. How do we handle twilight in teacher design. I'm planning on having Ealasaid with a couple of Scars by game time.
Mind you, I'd like to ask about the availability of Mystery Scripts as well. I assume as long as spend the appropriate seasons, I have access to House Mysteries but I was thinking of taking a common Mystery as well (Performance Magic). Might not get that far but worth asking.
Likewise if Ealasaid takes time off earlier in her career for 'stories' does that count as 'experience' for an appropeite Reputation or 'acquiring' something that is intended for use with the Story magic mystery virtue she intends to pick up?
Sure, take any scars you like, but any of the "positive" aspects of Twilight Episodes became experience points.
Regarding Mysteries, the scripts for Merinitae are well designed, so just point me at the script and advance your character, and if I want you to take more seasons off to account for the magnitude of the Mystery virtue, I'll discuss it with you in your thread. I think I had qcipher make some small adjustments to his advancement. As a guideline anything that requires a mystagogue to teach you requires a corresponding number of seasons of spent without experience, they have to teach, but no one says that they can't charge you for the privilege.
When you get a chance, can you edit the Summa and the Tractatus rules into the House Rules post, please? (I'm a lazy sod, and like all my HR on one shelf )
There's a penalty to the SQ for Arts tractatus if your (MT+Art) isn't at least 10, but if you read it with the penalty you can reread it later. For Ability tractatus, the penalty is (3-current score). (links in my previous post go to the rules posts in question)
Right.
I had it in my head that there wasn't any problem for staff. And I'm away from my computer so I couldn't look easily. I'll do some updates this evening as I have some unexpected free time.
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