How do demons get rid of angels?


Using material from the book "The Sundered Eagle", i'm currently preparing a story around the 4th crusade (my saga is currently in 1202).

I like the idea of the crusade being masterminded by demons in cover, and it would be the main plot of the story, although i'll make it difficult for my players to uncover its full extend.
But in the other hand, i'm thinkin that it's unlikelly a crusade would form without a handful of angels joining in disguise to monitor/keep an eye on the crusader... just in case.

Thus, we would inavoidably reach a point where demons and angels are aware of each other interferences, and try to swiftly get rid of the other party.
For the need of the saga, and for history sake, i decided to let demons have the upper hand.

Yet, after quickly reading RoP: Infernal and RoP: Divine chapters about demons and angels, it appears to me that demons might have a very hard time to get rid efficiently (and mostly definitely) of angels. Their powers cannot affect angels, and even killing the body of the angel doesn't prevent this one to generate a new body the next second.

I considered that demons might manipulate their followers so that they use maleficia against angels, but maleficia cannot affect angels either.

Any advise? Thank you :slight_smile:

Edit: of course, as a storyguide, i could let demons get rid of angels because it is my decision, but if possible, i would like to use a canon way, before to resort to "My Ultimate Authority Over My Saga" :wink:

Probably their main goal would be to have their minions do things that cause an Infernal aura to spring up as well as do things that weaken any Divine auras. Demons have limited ability to affect angels, but angels typically do not interfere as much or as overtly when ordinary people are choosing to side with the infernal. Once Infernal auras are made the angels typically leave.

I agree that "minions" is the key word. If you have the rule that Angels do not mechanically change people's mind as a matter of 'policy' (as opposed to all those Mentem specialist magi out there...), and will allow people to sin as they chose to do so despite visitations and warnings, then you shouldn't have any problem having a corrupted Crusade and still have enough demons and angels to keep anyone happy, or frustrated, or both.

Not sure that having demons or angels with the ability to obliterate each other is a sustainable idea, anyway. I mean, if they could, why wouldn't they have done so by now?


Remember that in Christian Theology, Demons also play a part in God's plan as tempters. It is up to humans to resist their temptations. God Himself does not permit demons to harm angels, and has commanded his angels not to obliterate demons entirely.

There's a precedent in Hermetic history. Jerbiton the Founder was a leader in the fight against an infernally usurped Byzanitine throne and Ecclesiastical heirarchy of Iconoclasts. You could use that as inspiration.

Angels will likely come to the aid of those who withstand the temptations of the Infernal.

Be warned, though. Demons are tricky. They're after souls, not lives. A crafty demon will set up a situation where magi will need to commit terrible sins in attempting to destroy them.

I recommend reading the Screwtape Letters for a good example of how demons manipulate people without directly confronting The Enemy.

Screwtape Letters:

In your saga, your powerful angels may be preoccupied with the virtuous achievement of individual crusader leaders -- while individual minor angels struggle to keep soldiers on the faithful path in the face of the unending wealth the crusade offers.

Bear in mind that in medieval tales, the Devil and his minons mostly lose against faithful Christians and the Heavenly Host.

Under AM5 cosmology a Crusade is usually a war between peoples who worship the same Divine, albeit in different ways. Given that, I don't see why Angels would get involved, other than to say something along the lines of "Knock off the smiting Muslims and drowning Jews, for they are your brothers, you lunkheads". Demons on the other hand probably love Crusades and Jihads.

Since, as you say, demons probably love Crusades and Jihads (murder, greed, power, rape, sins, etc.) so much, it seemed to me only normal that a handful of angels infiltrates to try to keep crusaders "on the right path" (eventhough i agree that this so-called "right path" is dubious when its purpose is to go to mass murder a people and/or deposit them from their properties and territories...)


Anyway, thank you all for your opinions. I think i'll keep one or two angels as simple advisors for characters, instead of making them real leaders of an anti-demon squad :slight_smile:

Why? By going on crusade they have ensured their place in heaven, so demons always lose out in crusades. Angels would be really active helping both sides though.

The divine does not exactly fit well into modern ideas about morality after all.

I wouldn't put it that way. Rather, I'd say that medieval ideas about crusading don't fit well with the idea of all monotheistic religions being equally Divine. If Muslims really did worship the demons Mahound, Apollyon and Termagant (as per the Song of Roland) then it might make sense for a Christian to earn a place in heaven fighting them.

Read Hiob in the Bible. God is the one who sends a demon after Hiob. Their powers in the game cannot be detected by Hermetic magic because they are God 's tools. In a world without temptation, there is no merit in being virtuous - it's Eden before the Fall.

But RoP:D makes it clear that the divine works based on how its believers think it does, so if they believe they are being moral and acting in gods will they can receive divine aid. It specifically mentions what happens when both sides in a battle petition for divine aid. This is one of the things that bugs me about Ars Magica but it is the way the game works by cannon.

Job's (Hiob) story in the bible is my favourite. It boils down to the devil tricking God into torturing a believer "just because". :mrgreen:


If you go to Urfa in Turkey (Edessa of the Crusades) you can visit the actual cave where Job lived and drink some magic water from the spring inside to cure all that ails you!

You're in luck, because that's not how the game works in canon. The Divine does not work "based on how its believers think it does" - the Divine operates by its own rules that makes all monotheistic faiths "wrong" on some areas of theology and doctrine. Both sides do benefit from divine aid, when their petitions are virtuous and faithful. This does not mean what the believers want is true.

Re-read the introduction to RoP:D. It makes it pretty clear what's going on.

Just a quick answer - At least in my sagas, the Divine does not interfere with the free will of humankind. So, demons are able to wreak havok IF they are invoked by humans without the interference of angels (if not, it would clash with the free will of the invoker). There are exceptions, of course, namely some Divine creatures, saints, and even pure people who asks for miracles...

I think the 4th Crusade is a great idea but is a very strong tide to effect for PCs. I can easily see angels tagging along particularly where individual crusaders are either very pious or have guardian angels. Remember that guardian angels are not just for the good folk, and are often pestering those they want to sway back to the right path. In these cases they act almost like tempting demons, trying to get a lost soul back on the path of righteousness, especially if that soul belongs to a magi who could pose a real threat to hell’s plans for the crusades.

I do not think you need to have the demons and angels every battle in open conflict. Instead, play the battle out among their proxies among the crusaders and even among the defenders (such as demon’s encouraging the defenders to be even worse than the invading army in order to defeat it). In the end, the battle between Heaven and hell should be fought in the hearts and minds of mankind. Uncovering the demonic plot is one thing, getting everyone to see it and take action are another.

If the PCs could get the crusaders to turn from the gates of Constantinople and back to Holy Lands, than would be a defeat of the demons goal, even though it would still result in death and destruction, at least it would be for a holy reason even if not a “divine” one.