How does Craft Magic work?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Hi all!

Craft Magic (Major Supernatural Virtue) from HoH:S. Been reading it, and not sure I completely understand it.

I'll go by application, see what I have got right, what's wrong, and what I don't get:

  1. Forgo words/necessary gestures by crafting a physical item (Choosing one of the Magus's Craft/Professions, taking the appropriate amount of time, etc) and bringing it within range of the target.
    The character cannot work on more than of these at a time, must keep Concentration as if casting a spell while working on the object...but can stop working on it, whenever, and pick work up later.
  • So this apparently works for Ritual spells as well, correct? There's no prohibition anywhere that I saw. So you could add Artes Liberales and Philosophae as well, under those circumstances, and props? And what about ceremonial casting with mastered Formulaic spells for such a purpose?
  • So a character could work on a carving, for example, and leave the last whittling off for months/years (however long, as long as he doesn't start work on another Crafted spell)? Actually, from the example in the book -the blacksmith Magus and the horseshoe- it looks like a Magus could work on a Crafted Spell, finish the crafting it and then sometime later actually cast it. Is this right? Looks to me like you could actually create multiple Crafted spells and have them not go off until the Magus decides they do! Having a CrCo healing Ritual at hand might be very handy.
  • The character does not need to actually maintain Concentration per Core rules, while Crafting? (maximum 15 minutes/point of skill)? It would be very difficult to use this ability to craft anything if this is applied!
  • And this applies to Formulaic, Spontaneous, Ritual casting, and use of any other Supernatural ability that might require words and/or gestures? Gruagachan casting?
  • The stress die roll, if needed to be rolled, is a spell casting die roll, NOT a Craft roll?
  • The Craft chosen and the final quality of the item do not have to have anything to do at all with the Crafted spell's Arts? (beyond application 2)
  • The Crafted spell can be Muto Vim'ed (think Boost, or Expansion) and Rego Vim'ed as usual (the Patient Spell, or Maintaining the Demanding Spell, for example) as long as all rules are followed (MuVi spell can't affect Sponts, must have a Duration as long as the Casting of the Crafted spell, etc)?
  • How does this interact with Multicast Spell Mastery? As normal, ie, bringing the object into range of the target/s, and releasing the spell Multicasts as normal?
  1. When Crafting a spell, can use Shape/Material bonuses of the crafted object, to add to Spellcasting/Supernatural effect total. Additionally, gains access to p.132 Design and Inscription Bonuses. Total limited by Craft ability used.
  • So "effect total" = Spell casting Total? Not Spell casting Score?
  • And this stacks with Spell Foci? If yes, interesting! Looking better and better for some Spontaneous Magic from a non-Rusticani.
  1. Making charged items. This is actually 2 things, right? (Believe it or not, I find this one very unclear; I don't think this should be named "charged items").
    a)You use application 1, but this time your roll does add to your Casting Score (actually reads Total, but one imagines Sponts work as normal). Huh? Why would you ever use application #1 for spells/Supernatural ability rolls instead of #3...maybe if you are somewhat short on time, and have 20 minutes, but not 2 hours? Or you don't have the raw materials for 2 or more things...
    -Each item created holds 1 crafted spell copy, only? (Unlike regular Hermetic charged items).
  • And if you have the Multicasting Spell Mastery for the Crafted spell...does each Crafted spell produce multicast spells?
  • Does this activity produce Lab Texts of any sort?
  • How does Penetration work here? These are not Hermetic charged items at all, looks to me that it simply should be based on Casting Total. And you obviously need not craft more than 1 item because...
  • Since this is based off of application #1, this means you can put Rituals into these "charged items", yes? :open_mouth: That's huge! What happens if you try to get more than 1 copy of the Ritual, have to pay usual vis/copy, and botch dice are based on all this vis being spent?
    Looks to me like someone with this Virtue might do fantastically well by specializing in casting a cheap Aegis of the Hearth, say at level 20-25 (pumping Re, Vi, Spell Masteries, AL, Philosophae, Sta, Pen, ceremonial props, working in a high Aura, the usual) and selling these to new Covenants, Bjornaer Covenants (no Gold Cord!), the Redcaps, expeditions to far-off places, etc... Though I wonder how casting tokens would work in such an instance.

b) The Magus can put a Supernatural Virtue or Ability that only affects himself in a created item, as a separate activity, so that someone else, potentially, can use it, once, or maybe more if crafting more than 1 item, depending on the parameters. "...though only if the activity requires the Crafted item to perform"

  • Including Major Supernatural and Major General Virtues, apparently? Base difficulty for Major and Minors with no associated skill is the same, 5? Including, presumably, Craft Magic itself?
  • How do people interpret "though only if the activity requires the Crafted item to perform."? Very loosely? The example in the book is for Puissant with Single Weapon, but it's crafted into a shield, which is a related item, but in no way necessary to use Single Weapon (and they even use the shield's shape Protection bonus!).
    How about a book/an illuminated page for Affinity with Magic Theory, a bookstand or a lamp for Book Learner, a chalkboard/lead sheet for Apt Student, boots for Independent Study...a walking stick for Ways of the Mountains? A lotion/potion for Unaging?
    What item would be useful for Greater Immunity to Fire? Is there fire-retardant clothing already in use? :slight_smile:
  • the effects for this 2nd use of application 3 can be difficult to attain, as they are based on Craft Totals, but with access to most of the books you can use Workshop enhancements, Workshop helpers, manuals, all sorts of Shape/Material bonuses, and Faerie affinities/blood to pump up totals.
  • So you can use Confidence in some/most/none of these Craft activities? Some last 20 minutes, some hours, some days..and more. What is the cutoff time?
  1. May craft objects that contain raw vis into magical devices with lesser enchantments, similar to application 3, but if putting some . Limit here is based also on the amount of vis the item may hold.
  • But! A magus can move vis into any object with a day of work, correct? Or immediately with a ReVi Base 10. So the example of a pelt already containing Animal vis is not really how this would be used, right? Usually, the magus would choose a useful raw substance for which he has a good Craft score, move however many pawns he'd require and have access to and that the material would hold, and then proceed with the Crafting. Have I got that right?
  • And, another big one, crafting Lesser enchanted items with Virtues, usable by others: so Base 5 + 1 Touch + 2 Sun + 1 2 uses/day = 21 would effectively give someone else Craft Magic/Ways of the whatever/Affinity/Greater Immunity Fire/whatever Supernatural Virtue or any other Virtue that only affects himself? Item would need 5 pawns to work, but the payoff could be huge

(Looks to me like an ambitious Mage might create an item with just such an effect, petition to join the Verditius, losing Craft Magic with The Embrace of Boethius, and later activate his item to still be able to use it!)

Thanks in advance for all the feedback!

2

Let's go through this slowly

There is no prohibition on Ritual spells, as it's a magical effect you could produce "through some other means, usually a Supernatural Virtue or the Hermetic Arts" - however, it goes on to say "First, the character may forgo any necessary words and gestures or other actions when producing an effect with his powers, without penalty. Instead, he crafts a physical object, which takes the place of the spell" - so the craft magic replaces ceremonial casting. I would say none of the ceremonial bonuses apply when using Craft magic.

If you work on a carving and then leave it - as you "Must avoid distraction and maintain concentration whenever he is working on the object, just as if he was casting a spell, and like casting a spell the character can only work on a single object at a time" - so if you partly finish something, then try and cast a spell, it would surely count as "casting another spell" under the concentration rules on ArM5 p82, requiring a Sta + Concentration + stress die roll of 15 or more. Therefore, unless you are a genius at concentration you make casting any other spells while you have a partly finished object extremely difficult. In fact, this points to a weakness of craft magic - if you're half way through making your magic horseshoe, and an emergency occurs in your forge, you have to decide whether to drop all the work you've done and start again later, or to try casting with the EF 15 concentration roll.

I would say you don't need to worry about the 15 minutes/level applying while crafting, as many crafts take longer, but you do need to worry about all the distractions and continuing situations mentioned in the table on page 82 of the core rules.

Does this apply to spontaneous, formulaic, ritual and any other casting? Well, as it says "usually a Supernatural Virtue or the Hermetic Arts" it will definitely allow you to reproduce anything you can do by Hermetic effects, and by saying "usually" that does mean it's possible you could use other magical methods with it. However, as with any other combination of effects, it probably requires your SG to rule whether a particular combination is valid.

I think the stress die roll is a casting roll and not a craft roll, as it says "If the effect would normally require him to roll a stress die" so you roll a stress die as normal if it's a spell that would normally need one.

The craft chosen doesn't need to reflect the technique and form - however, if they don't obviously go together the effect looks blatantly magical. If I put a damaging effect into an arrow, and then fire it at someone, when the other person looks incredibly hurt it might be down to the archers skill or a lucky shot. If I put a damaging effect into a bread roll (using baking as a craft), and throw it at someone who starts bleeding, then I'm obviously being magical.

Can it be MuVi'd and ReVi'd as normal? As always, it's up to your SG whether you have sufficient understanding - ArM5 p 159 in the MuVi guidelines says "These spells can only be used on Hermetic magic, as they depend on a good understanding of the processes involved". If your SG says this sort of magic is insufficiently integrated into Hermetic Theory, then you will need a breakthrough before you can MuVi craft magic effects.

How does this interact with Multicast Spell Mastery? Well, it counts as a single casting as one of your magical effects, so if you can cast a spell and multicast it like crazy, then theoretically you should be able to apply this to a Craft Magic effect. I don't combining these will break the game any more than high levels of multicast mastery would do anyway.
So much work just to get through section 1. This will take a while to get through. I tried making a Rusticani once, but it can be hard to see how to use their powers well.

1 Like
3

As it says Total rather than score, it adds to the total, making it useful for spontaneous magic. However, as crafting a spell is slow this may not be any better than ceremonially casting a spontaneous spell with props.

I don't think it should stack with Spell Foci, or with Potent Magic, or anything else that allows you to add the shape & material bonus in. Multiple virtues shouldn't allow you to keep adding the shape bonuses over and over.

1 Like
4

Hi darkwing, thanks for taking the time to respond, as always one of the most helpful posters in the forum.

I do disagree on this, as the original purveyors of Craft Magic have the Weak Spontaneous magic Flaw, and they need all the stackable things they can to get beyond 10. Most of the bonuses are relatively small, or are limited by Craft or MT. And Potent Magic is itself not useful for Spontaneous Magic. For Formulaic magic, it's another thing, but no worse than taking Life Boost and spending 4 fatigue to get a +20 casting roll every 4 hours on one of these spell effects/charged items. Anyway, as always, it's best to talk it out with the SG and the troupe.

Looking forward to your observations on applications 3 and 4! Thanks again!

5

You must maintain concentration whenever you're working on the object, which allows for interruptions during which you are not maintaining concentration Otherwise, the heater shield exemple would be thoroughly impossible, since it takes 9 days.

The restriction that prevents you from casting another spell is that "like casting a spell, the character can only work on a single object at a time".
A magus can cast another spell while maintaining another through concentration, but casting a spell during a pause in Crafting Magic is like casting a spell in the middle of casting another, which apparently was clarified by David Chart as impossible, rather than requiring a high Concentration.

1 Like
6

[quote="Ignes.Festivus"]
3) Making charged items. This is actually 2 things, right? (Believe it or not, I find this one very unclear; I don't think this should be named "charged items").
a)You use application 1, but this time your roll does add to your Casting Score (actually reads Total, but one imagines Sponts work as normal). Huh? Why would you ever use application #1 for spells/Supernatural ability rolls instead of #3...maybe if you are somewhat short on time, and have 20 minutes, but not 2 hours? Or you don't have the raw materials for 2 or more things...
-Each item created holds 1 crafted spell copy, only? (Unlike regular Hermetic charged items).

  • And if you have the Multicasting Spell Mastery for the Crafted spell...does each Crafted spell produce multicast spells?
  • Does this activity produce Lab Texts of any sort?
  • How does Penetration work here? These are not Hermetic charged items at all, looks to me that it simply should be based on Casting Total. And you obviously need not craft more than 1 item because...
  • Since this is based off of application #1, this means you can put Rituals into these "charged items", yes? :open_mouth: That's huge! What happens if you try to get more than 1 copy of the Ritual, have to pay usual vis/copy, and botch dice are based on all this vis being spent?
    Looks to me like someone with this Virtue might do fantastically well by specializing in casting a cheap Aegis of the Hearth, say at level 20-25 (pumping Re, Vi, Spell Masteries, AL, Philosophae, Sta, Pen, ceremonial props, working in a high Aura, the usual) and selling these to new Covenants, Bjornaer Covenants (no Gold Cord!), the Redcaps, expeditions to far-off places, etc... Though I wonder how casting tokens would work in such an instance.
    [/quote
    It says "the character may make charged items in the same way as Hermetic magi (see Charged Items, ArM5 pages 96-97) without needing to spend an entire season" - as it is in the same way, each charge provides one casting regardless of how much spell mastery you have, same as anyone else's charged items. In terms of why you would use method #1 instead of #3, you may as well use #3 if you have the time and materials to make multiple copies. I can't see any disadvantage to using #3 in this way.

Does this activity produce Lab Texts - seeing as it can be performed in a workshop and does not need a Hermetic laboratory, this is not a Hermetic laboratory activity and so does not produce Hermetic laboratory texts.

How does penetration work? Well, it says use the character's casting total so if you only make the one charge, presumably you use your full casting total.

I'm not sure #3 is based completely off #1, otherwise why did they put a second section in between and number the different sections? As it says you may make "charged items in the same way as Hermetic magi" and refers you to the charged items rules, these charged items must have the same restrictions as regular charged items - so no rituals. This does allow you to churn out vast quantities of items containing your favourite formulaic spells for the grogs to use (spent 1.75 hours to make a one-shot arrow of Abysmal flame! Keep going until bored!)

7

The wording says Supernatural Virtue or Ability "that only affects himself" (presumably to rule out magic weapons of Entrancement or Hexing) and then gives an example using the General Virtue Puissant Single Weapon. sigh. The wording and the example go against each other - however, as the examples of lesser craft magic in Rival Magic just says "A character with a Virtue that only affects himself (eg Greater Immunity to Fire, Puissant Single Weapon)" I think your reading of a supernatural or general virtue that only affects the user, as long as they need the item to perform.

I would be fairly strict in the item being something you use to perform. A shield is used to perform Puissant Single Weapon as it appears on the Melee Weapons Table in ArM5 p176 as a weapon using the ability Single Weapon, (it's damage is +0 so if you try to smack someone in the face with a shield bash you only use your attack advantage and strength for damage), and a shield is a perfectly valid specialisation for Single Weapon according to p67.

For your examples - do you really need any items to read a book or study a skill independently? Like with items of quality as made by Verditius, you need to show that the item definitely works hand-in-hand with the activity.

What item would be appropriate for Immunity to Fire? I would say the heat-resistant gauntlets and apron as used by blacksmiths and glassblowers when dealing with molten-hot materials. To be fair, you may be better off using method #4 if you have the right materials.

Confidence - I've checked the errata, and the reference to confidence is deleted so I don't think you can use confidence.

8

Do you class "raw vis" as naturally occurring, not-been-processed vis, or any vis trapped in a material form (which ArM p80 seems to indicate)? If the former, you really need the right material. If the latter, then yes any magus can move vis around so having a jeweller Craft Magus who can move vis into all the metals and precious stones that get big shape/material bonuses is amazing.

Yes, you could make items that allow others to have big virtues. The downside is if the item gets lost or damaged, you're in trouble. Making an item of Craft Magic, and then undergoing an ordeal that destroys your own Craft Magic, puts you in a very vulnerable situation.

9

Two more questions:

1- Cautious Sorcerer or Cautious with ability works with Craft Magic? Which one or both?

2- Can a cooker make "whey protein" for great strengh; "lembas bread" for unaging or lesser imunity to starving; "coffe" for any study total? A apothecary can make drugs or potions for anything?

Sorry for my google translator English. I'm from Brazil

10

Hi, thanks for revitalizing this thread! I had meant to review everything and summarize, based on darkwing ‘s explanations, and my take, upon reading and re reading this Virtue so many times, but have been less active, mostly due to the board lag.

  1. Both work, at different times. Cautious Sorcerer works when there are spellcasting rolls involved in applications 1, 3, and 4.
    Cautious with appropriate ability works in applications 3 and 4 when you are crafting an item to grant the use of a Virtue/Supernatural ability, like in the fear-producing drum in the example. But, if there’s no roll involved in the granted Virtue’s use, then it’s a crafting roll (for which you may have Careful with, as well)

  2. YSMV. Strictly speaking, the crafted item must be something necessary for the Virtue/activity being performed. This seems a case of “talk to your troupe” and see what may work and what may not, which may vary wildly. Be aware that the Crafter must possess the Virtue to be granted, but of course you can look to Figurine Magic and a few other tricks to fulfill this.

1 Like
11

Last question (or not)

In RM, pg 11, there is Lesser Craft Magic, in the description, you can make a Lesser enchantment with virtues like puissant, but in the description of "Greater" Craft Magic, there is not a option. Only Magic or Supernatural. But Lesser Craft explicit, it is a version of Craft Magic. If i wish make a Lesser enchantment of a virtue too, need i two virtues?

12

Craft Magic as decribed under Rustica in Ex Miscelania HOH:S specifically indicates that it does include the investment of supernatural virtues that the craft mage possesses, and the example includes a non-supernatural virtue.

13

English is imprecise. The book states in the third application of Craft Magic "...a Supernatural Ability or Virtue that only affects himself..." which can be read as (Supernatural Ability or Virtue) that (only affects himself) OR (Supernatural Ability) or (Virtue that only affects himself).

Both are "RAW", but the second is supported by the examples given.

Bozo - the fourth application of Craft Magic does not address virtues and lesser enchanted items, even in the errata. Thus it may have been the intent of the author to not include it. The section, as written, relies on the crafted effect as described in the third application, which includes virtues. As such it falls squarely on your storyteller to decide.

As to your previous question about adding strength, virtues and/or study totals - theoretically yes, but you need access to other magic that produces that affect such as a virtue or spell.

A few extra thoughts on Ex Misc - remember they cannot use fatiguing sponts, and thus do not roll for spontaneous spellcasting. Most virtues, actions, etc that would otherwise be helpful only apply to rolls and thus cannot be used with spontaneous Craft Magic. Spell Foci and talisman attunement boni add to Casting TOTALS, and thus should be heavily used. For example, a work glove talisman attuned to affect things by touch and manipulate at a distance would give +4 under nearly every circumstance. Obviously Formulaic magic does use a roll and thus can have many stackable boni.

In my experience, a Rusticani wants to learn LOTS of spells, and thus will customize their Lab to that effect, then use those spells to make lots of charged items. If your saga invloves buying/selling charged items for vis, the Risticani can become quite rich...