How invisible is invisible?

[Fhtagn]

@Vrylakos

@Marko Markoko

This is true. Creo spells work differently, as the target is the thing created. You can "hit" any designtated point within range.

I think we're talking aimed/unaimed (autohit). I not sure the Creo nuance applies.

I'm not buying the "If you think target is at X, but can't see them, your guess lets you hit them", at least accordingt to the rules and the corollaries of the Limit of Arcane Connections.

A Voice range Creo spell lets you create a thing at the place you desire in the range of your voice. If I create a giant ball of fire near a tree and there happens to be an invisible magus within the area of effect, he's going to get burned whether or not I could see him.

Now, PoF is a much smaller fire but the principle stands. Working out where said magus is should be difficult, however, without additional information (such as seeing footprints in snow), but if you can work it out then there's no reason you can't burn him. Some sort of perception test should definitely be required though.

[Chameleon]

There is some stuff in Societas, in the Flambeau section, on fights with invisible opponents. That could answer some of these particulars. Unfortunately I don't have it with me at the moment...

[Vrylakos]

@DIREWOLF75

@Matt Ryan

@Vrylakos

Indeed. I thought with non-aimed spells, "Can't Sense" means "Can't Hit", as if the spell could not be 'grounded' to a target and thus cast.

That's my take on it as well. If the caster can sense the target (not necessarily "see" but somehow sense) then he can fry it, in this case. I think the challenge is trying to sense the invisible magus, not hitting it with a non-aimed spell.

Since invisibility is a relatively low level spell, I make it fairly easy to foil. I'd ask for a Perception + Awareness (listening) + stress die vs. variable Ease Factor depending on the surroundings to determine the success of the caster sensing the target.

Of course, that wouldn't work against a magus with invisibility and another Perdo Imaginem spell that cancels the sound he makes when moving, which has come up in some of my games.

Matt Ryan

If the caster casts the spell at point A and the "invisible" person really IS at point A then its a hit. If he THINKS the person is at point B when casting, the spell doesnt hit the invisible person at point A.

Yes, if the magi can sense the invisible person somehow, and can sense where that person is CORRECTLY, its a hit.

For spells that normally autohit, like Crystal Dart, et. al., I think there would have be an aiming roll or some sort of miss mechanism - the autohit would seem to be predicated on sensing the target. Even a Creo spell that did not have a real target to aim at would seem to not get optimal results, barring an attack that just covers an area.

[ExarKun]

I think...

It's simply a choice of terms:

• aiming hit (finesse) means no resistance (auto hit), and vice versa. That's, and no other.

• auto hit, or not, need that you "sense" your victim (would it be a person, animal, place or building, that doesn't matter). If you can't see hit, you can ear it. If you can't ear, you can smell. In brief words: sense, in any way.

But, if you can't sense, you can fire randomly:

The scene: a magus in the sky, invisible. Another magus (Me) trying to fire at the first, randomly
"THERE!
FIREBALL"
frrrrrr booouuum

Exemple: see the scene: a fireball target "the place" where i thought was the invisible magus:

• if the invisible magus is where i thought (and it's only a matter of chance, because, in the sky, i can't use any other sense, except maybe In spells , but i haven't thought about those for now ^^), my fireball auto hit him: no need to finesse roll

• if not, yes, my fireball exactly hit where i wanted to hit... but the fireball can't guess that what i wanted to hit was "the invisible magus who i guess standing there", so the fireball CAN'T imo autodirect itself.

• if my spell was unpenetrative (flambeau style^^ (forget the school : Vilano?))... needing finesse, so i would have to roll for finesse in the first case (where my opponent stand at the place i chose to fire at) ...and my opponent would have had a big bonus due to his invisibility power. It's HERE that a "autoaim" spell would have been usefull.

And that's it.

Voice/Sight or others are ONLY range. Not "if you are in the area of my [insert word], visible or not, i can always cast my spell ON you, no matter if i sense you or not"

[Birbin_again]

What does the "fireball" mean?

I think scent and hearing cannot locate a person or object exactly even at close range. Sight can.

[caribet]

As I understand it, there are two "kinds" of delivering a spell, with some confusing descriptions and an unclear mix of forms. However...

1. applies a spell effect at a chosen location. If you want to be fussy about the details of that location you must "aim" with a Finesse roll, and failure in that offsets the place of delivery. (Sometimes the Aim is trivial - "create a 100p mist-cloud right in front of me")
   (This is a 5e Aimed spell, and there are very few in the 5e core book.)
   This kind of spell almost always creates its magical effect (unless the environment itself resists, eg a Faerie glade); after the spell starts, beings in the area of effect might find Magic Resistance makes the spell slide off them.

Examples "make a pit in the earth", or "create a cloud of mist".
MR is of little help with a pit, but helps a lot with a cloud (especially e.g. a toxic cloud)

2. someone or something is designated (described) as "to be affected" by the spell - the spell's Target. Ideally the Target and the Form of the spell match - eg PeCo "cause a wound", but not always possible (e.g. "heat a target so it catches on fire" is usually CrIg not MuCo(Ig) (though it could be...))

this in 5e is a Targeted spell (as is nearly every spell in core 5e), and you must know something about your target to "describe" it to the spell. If you can do so, then the spell directly affects the described target.
However - the described target immediately gets MR and if they resist the spell fails utterly.
So - if you target a Group, and a Magus is the described centre, and Parma protects them - the spell fails.
If you pick one of the peripheral grogs instead, they usually have no MR, so the spell comes into effect, but individuals still resist after that.)

Note that if the spell is designed to affect a described target (a Targeted spell), then 5e never requires an Aiming roll, but does requires definite sense of the described target, and MR test to cast the spell;
if the 5e spell is "Aimed", you describe "where" but not "who" and you roll Finesse to aim, and the spell "happens", and is subsequently resisted.

Note that for a 5e Formulaic spell, the choice between Aimed and Targeted is fixed when the Formula is devised and written down, and no choice is possible when you cast the spell.
(A Spont. caster can choose on-the-fly)

The confusion in most readers comes because of the rewriting of many 4e spells into 5e to be Targeted and not Aimed. Many of the "classic" "create a gob magical stuff" spells are now targeted even when the Forms do not match, and even for Creo spells.

The 5e "Fireball" (BoAF) spell is Targeted, and always affects its designated target, so long as you know who you are after.
Likewise Pilum Of Fire - the fact that they have cosmetic descriptions as "streaking out" matters not at all - they are targeted, direct influence spells.

Some confusion arises over some uses of the word "target", as technically, the CrAu mist-cloud is the target of the Aimed spell, and the fire of the CrIg BoAF is the target for purposes of Size etc, but the burnt-thing is the target for getting it there... Duh!
Let's make sure this is fixed in 6e or 5.5e!!!

So the answer to the burn-the-invisible-target question is

1. BoAF - you must detect them (InIm, InCo, or Per+Awareness "listen" or "smell" or "flail around with a stick"). If you detect them, the BoAF burn them.
2. devise a new CrIf "large ball of fire" which is several paces across, and ignite one where you guess the invisible target might be standing. If you place it right (Aim) and the target is there, they burn!

Now, it seems to me, a sensible combat-minded Flambeau would be well advised to invent some Aimed CrIg spells.
A Large Size CrIg spell, which creates a fire over an area, or a Group spell which scatters fires in a pattern... nice. If you can fill an area with fire, the fire will burn the invisible target, no matter whether you can sense them or not!

[caribet]

@Birbin again

What does the "fireball" mean?

I think scent and hearing cannot locate a person or object exactly even at close range. Sight can.

if someone has a distinctive scent, I would say that is enough - but it has to be different from the environment.

If someone steps on a twig then "the one who snapped the twig" is quite enough - no problem...

But neither example will do for a targeted Sight-range spell! ('cos for Sight you must see the target...)

(That's why some of the unusual Ranges are so useful...)