HR and CD discussion

Assuming a Verditius even shared a lab text with a non Verditus. Hubris or not, I don't really see a huge trade in lab texts by Verditius, whether among themselves or with others. Any lab texts from a Verditius in wide circulation are probably involved in a Vendetta or perhaps the spoils of a Wizard's War...

Can a Verditius decide not to include Verditius Runes in an item, so that the resulting lab text is more easily reusable by non-Verditius?

See no reason why not. I'd have a question as to why a Verditius would do so...

Because he's already being ridiculed by the rest of his House, was never introduced into the deeper mysteries so doesn't have Hubris, is moving to an isolated covenant in Finland while the rest of the Order is suffering from a magical disease, and wants to produce lab texts that his fellow covenant members can use if they want to recreate some of his items for their personal use? :wink:

(I'm not likely to do that before the very end of his advancement, when he knows he's going to join the covenant. Even more likely is that he'd do this only once play starts.)

Are you missing +1 for two uses a day on that item? I know it's beside your main question.

I'll also point out that such items with continuous effects are truly continuous. There is no off switch. It's always on and can never be shut off until disenchanted/destroyed.
I was involved in a forum discussion about continuous effects a while back, and continuous effects on items are kind of a mess, in that they don't work that people think they should work, or it is at least not intuitive...

Here's the discussion:

That's why I'm proposing to use D:Conc and have the item maintain concentration for the Fan of Summer Breezes that Bartholomeus enchanted:

BTW, I think those two questions slipped away unnoticed and weren't answered...

Yes, I did miss that. Fixing. Thanks for catching it.

NOTE: Moved from the Saga development thread.

I've looked back and my questions are scattered and not particularly coherent. Some have also been answered. So let me put my remaining questions down in (what I hope is an) easily digestible form. Some are old and some are new. You certainly didn't miss all of these questions, because I just thought of a lot of them.

1.) Is the rule for any Deficient Technique/Form that you must spend at least 55 points of your apprenticeship points in that Art? You seemed to cite that rule with me, but I note that two other characters have Deficient Arts without meeting this limitation.

2.) Can a player find someone to cast (Characteristic) of the Heroes during character generation for the cost of 36 vis (and a Warping point)? I note that Calpurnia has done this and wanted to confirm that it was a legit action before advancing my character. (I can see the arguments on both side of this issue, and don't want to make any assumptions.) I couldn't find any previous post from you addressing this, though I could have easily missed it.

3.) I wanted to confirm how a PVS would work. As I understand, it can be taken one of two ways: (1) prior to the saga start, in which case it provides vis only during character generation, but not during the saga; or (2) after the saga start, in which case it provides vis only during the saga, but not during character generation. I note that others have assumed 3 vis per year generated by the vis source. Is that correct? Also, I assume that the PVS must choose a Form and use that form throughout character generation (if that option is selected), trading off at 2:1 if another Form is needed.

4.) Is Craft Automata a freely available skill that can be bought by anyone without limitation? (I wouldn't want to take this with the OGC concept, but I'd like to know what options I have in general for character design.)

5.) If I go with mystery virtues for OGC (e.g., Unaging, Hermetic Alchemy, and Lesser Elixir) during character generation, how should I deal with the initiation scripts for those? I need to know if seasons for quests, etc. are required for initiation before I can advance. It would also help to know what Flaws might be imposed to help me make an informed decision as to whether the sacrifices are worth it for the character concept. I assume that spreading initiations out roughly evenly among advancement is appropriate.

6.) Can your apprentice be used as the subject for the major flaw Dependent? I see that Calpurnia has done this and wanted to make sure that it was allowed before finalizing my own flaws (which I had previously noted would include Dependent).

7.) What is the process for making a familiar? Do we start with the normal animal of virtue (if available)? To what extent can we modify the animal, or build up the animal from the ground up? I see that some magi have a host of custom abilities for their familiars. What's appropriate? I want to make sure I'm following the rules properly. What about Intelligence? I see that in some cases the Int is the base for the creature, but in at least one case (Angarr), the Int is higher than would be normal for a standard creature of that type. (Vesper isn't made up yet, so I can't use that familiar for guidance.) I'm not looking to have a super-genius for a familiar. But even the difference between a 0 and a +1 is significant in some circumstances.

8.) On familiars again, how will bonding technique and form be determined? I note that some people picked the default Animal Form for binding, while others did not. What I see so far is ReTe for a tortise (Calpurnia), MuAn for a hare (Bartholomeus), CrAq for a polar bear (Angarr), and ReAn for a wolf (Thyra). I note that the technique for binding was always the highest technique for the magus, while the form was either the highest form or Animal. Currently I'm looking at either an owl or a black cat and was curious about the TeFo for binding. RoP:M gives guidelines, but there are gaps.

9.) Is there any policy on gaining virtues from your familiar? I note that Calpurnia gains the virtue Unaging from her familiar, and Angarr gains Puissant Hunting. I don't want to overreach, but I'd like to know what's appropriate and what isn't.

Sorry for all the questions, but I want to make certain that I'm following the rules properly when making up my magus and familiar.

Trogdor, thanks for moving it, I was going to do so and reply here.

Deficient Arts aren't created equal, and as I saw it at the time, I saw an apprentice going from one master to another, and felt that it would be appropriate that the new master would attempt to make up for the shortcomings of the previous master. Auram isn't quite as impactful as say Terram, or even the techniques, which I've seen several techniques get the flaw.

Yes, it's legit.

Yes, 3 pawns per year is a reasonable number that I haven't said no to, so we'll let it stand. The vis source is either taken during character generation or at the commencement of the saga, player choice. And yes, the virtue is for only 1 Form of vis.

This is complex. The canon suggests that anyone can be taught it. I'm not going to gainsay that. There's certainly no ex Misc tradition built upon it. And, let's say that the cost for being taught automata is pretty high outside of House Verditius.

They have to be created, since Mysteries wasn't kind enough to flesh them out except to stipulate the virtues of flaws imparted as part of the initiation rite(s).

That's one of those things I've been meaning to come back and have a talk about but always get sidetracked. I'll handle that separately, in another post.

Spend a season hunting for a familiar, spend a binding the familiar. I don't have strict rules on it, nor have I given the familiars a final look over. Combat familiars, IMO, are a bad idea.

The book suggests that one should be able to find a familiar that favors their best TeFo. I don't think that's a problem.

Unaging isn't a particularly impactful virtue. Puissant Hunt seems pretty appropriate for a polar bear, or other predator (in a Hangout saga I'm in, my weather maga's Golden Eagle can also impart Puissant Hunt). If it's thematic to the creature, it's more likely to pass muster, and both those virtues seem to be in that vein.

Thanks for a quick response. This will help me get things moving more quickly.

JL - I've got a quasi combative familiar. The powers seemed right for the concept I had in mind but want to know where that comment comes from.

I've come to a decision regarding Apprentices as Dependents. It just doesn't make sense. I was willing to listen to some carefully crafted narrative as to why this would make sense, but instead I had a list of possibilities. As the story guide, I have to create stories for the players that make sense, and the reasons offered for this didn't work for me. We should note, that under the Code, Apprentices are considered property, and so, at any time, without real consquence, a magus can simply kill an apprentice and resolve the story flaw. In the case of a birth child being an apprentice, this isn't likely, but it's still a distinct possibility. Even still, it's not a possibility that I find interesting to create stories.

That's not to say it's an absolute no, it's a hard no. If you can come up with a really story seed to justify it, I'm still willing to listen to an appeal. Listing off possibilities, isn't the same as presenting a story seed, though.

Combat is dangerous, and I won't deny that combat abilities for a familiar, such as a polar bear, make sense, but are you willing to regularly risk your familiar in combat? There's an appeal to make a familiar less squishy, more combat capable, because magi can be squishy, but a familiar represents a huge investment in the magus's magical power. With combat being so deadly, regularly risking a familiar to that chance is, IMO, less than wise.

Ok, I'm good with that. How about this - at my covenant, just before I planned to leave, the troubles came to our door. Our Aegis is very small, covering only a couple of buildings. Most of the covenfolk live outside of it. A group came for our vis, and we were forced to confront them. We won, but the soldier grogs perished. A decision was made to disband the covenant.

After the attack, I'm left with a number of widows and small children. I'm carrying, oh about a dozen refugees with me. My build points represent my portion of the covenant's resources.

I've got in my head that I'm coming for Bartholemeus on my ship, and we'll go together to Finland, but I've got a lot of people with me that need help.

I'm perfectly fine with that. It was my original interpretation of the flaw anyway.

That can work, though I was planning on Bartholomeus arriving by mundane means (merchant ship). He'd have learned a bit of Area Lore on the way (and fallen off the ship once, hence learning to swim).

We can still go your way if you want. If space is an issue on the boat due to the supplies + the number of people, then Bartholomeus can help there. Though he will also be travelling with several mundanes -- about 15-20 people (grogs, specialists and just regular covenfolk) -- he can shrink down the supplies so that the people have more space.

We can even do it half-and-half, with Bartholomeus making it to Denmark on his own and being picked up by Calpurnia there, like Aarhus. Or perhaps Bartholomeus made it to Turku in Finland, and Calpurnia simply picked him up there after dropping off her own people at the covenant's site. Up to you how we do this. I think the last possibility makes the most sense.

Out of curiosity (and to help complete the development of my magus), how prevalent do you think combat will be for the magi? Is a non-combat magus or a low-combat magus viable? I'm not particularly looking at a non-combat magus, but I wasn't looking at any 50 penetration with called lightning either. Is that something that you can see working in your saga, or will a low-combat magus be (possibly literally) dead on arrival?

Jonathan, you made some salient points about my design. What I'd like to do is to start my character at +2 Per and +2 Int (instead of 0 and +3), and then use Characteristic of the Heroes once on each. I just want to make sure that doing it twice is not unreasonable. Without an Automata, I can afford a second casting.

Is it from a sourcebook? I've a frazzled brain today.

HOH:TL, p. 103.