Humans, lightening, animals: Individual gone wild

So as the other discussion progresses about lightening bolts, I in my infinite noob deficient wisdom, was bothered by something with regards to Creo.

Base size for Animal is something of the size of a pony +1 size, or smaller. So when you make say rats, how many people go with the "I can make a number of mice equal to the size +1 of a pony", or something like one hundred rats. Then move to Group, you get the ten times mass of a Individual in number of animals right? The example spell, CotRS, uses weight to determine size of the swarm of locust. So you get a spell that makes a divisible mass of 1000 +1 sized animals, to be arranged as any quantities of animals that are +1 size or smaller. So going back to rats, 100,000 rats.

Now move on to Corpus and suddenly you are dealing with a base Individual of +1 size or smaller. I understand that in the paradigm of Ars (crap I used those two words together... waiting for my curse) a human is a different creature than animals; entirely separated from each other spiritually, physically, and magically, barring Muto of course. So can the same logic follow? "I make ten Dwarves (ten Individual human bodies with the dwarf flaw, size -2) instead of a single +1 Human." Then you move to Group. Do you get one hundred dwarfs with a specific spell to make -2 sized persons? Can you get one human corpse sized +4 (elephant), if you make a Individual with a size modifier high enough? It looks like you can, but would you need a Muto requisite? With Creo/Corpus Target" Ind you can make a human corpse at the top end of +1 size, so I assume at the low end of -2 and no smaller; but only ONE person, because Target is Individual. If that is correct then with a Group modifier you can only make ten persons of any one size or can you play with the mass like you do Animal? It would seem no because Animals each have different sizes, but then so do humans (+1 to -2). So with a Group spell can you Creo one hundred dwarfs - 2 size, ten small frame people -1 size, ten standard size 0 people, or ten large people +1 size? They would all seem to be equally massed soulless corpses.

Finally Auram. I can see where it says the base Individual of Auram is a weather phenomenon that affects the area within a standard Boundary - area one hundred paces across. But it also states a Individual is one singular phenomenon, one cloud, one wind, one lightening bolt. Each be the Platonic individual of a single phenomenon. So while Group would affect lightening as a number of bolts, it affects a storm as a mass or size quantity. And as for a wind, it could be either a number of winds or a strength of winds or well I will admit Target Group for Wind is ambiguous and I cannot be certain as to how to qualify it.

And then you have size modifiers for Auram. So a +2 size to a storm would be rather drastically different than a +2 size for a wind or a lightening bolt. A storm Target Group with a +2 size modifier would span a area 1,000 times the size of a single boundary, but a wind Target Group with a +2 size modifier could be a single wind, with 1,000 times the area, or force, or speed; but could it also be ten distinct winds, blowing with a 100 times increase in it's expression? Can it possibly be 1,000 distinct and viably individual breezes blowing on their own trajectories, each with a single wind phenomenon's strength based on Creo base level? I already did this with lightening, but could go a bolt of lightening with Group have to be ten Individuals, or could it possibly be a single bolt ten times larger? Or one hundred bolts each a tenth of a single bolt. This last example does not seem possible because you cannot reduce a Target below a minimum base size given. A minimum base for lightening is one bolt. So add a size mod to a bolt of lightening without adding a group and you get larger bolts of lightening?

I don't presume to know what the hell I am talking about :laughing: I just wanted to see what others thought of my rational. Other than the single word "atrocious" response.... :wink:

CrAn Individual will make 1 rat, no more. It could be a giant, 100 pound rat. Only when you use Group can you divide the (now) 1000 pounds in 1000 1-pound rats, or 2 500-pounds rats. Note that at the same level, you'd get a single 10,000 pounds rat, 10 times the total weight of the Group.

This is how I read it as well. :slight_smile:

IIRC a rat is vermin, so it is not the best example. Vermin is treated as an uncountable thing in Ars, so you create "an individual worth of vermin" (rats in this case) rather than an individual rat. That is a lot of rats! It is equally difficult to create a single rat than a pony-size ammount of them.

For non-vermin animals, I think you nailed it :slight_smile: You can create a single cat, not a pony-size worth of cats. f you want 10 cats, ther eyou go with group target.


That's actually not quite right - according to A&A (pg30), the largest vermin are mice, so presumably rats are proper animals. To continue the diversion, though, vermin in Ars are quite a nice touch - worms (vermes -> vermin) multiply from generation from their base element (mice from damp earth, frogs from the slime and mud in water, spiders from the air etc.), instead of multiplying through propogation. Their production is therefore a natural process which can be accomplished through instantaneos Rego Animal magic used upon the relevant source element. Given the small size of vermin, group target can produce a lot of vermin, although there's a caveat that the base element must be capable of supporting that many creatures. "Supporting" is this case seems to (roughly?) mean you can't have a greater volume of vermin than the base element, though, so that's still potentially a lot.

WOW... I had no idea about the vermin thing. Another thing to add to the list of "Why Ars kicks astronomical proportions" you get to learn something new all the time.

I learned two things. Bad ass! :smiley:

Ah, fuzzy memory. I stand corrected. Thx Salutor :slight_smile: Rat is an animal then. Well, in that case an individul creates a single rat. Or a pony (size +1) worth of mice. :slight_smile:

LOL Portianitor :mrgreen:

It is easy to wonder how humans survived the ignorance of the middle ages, unless you stop to think perhaps we are still living in them.

The contemporary men laugh at the men of past times, with their foolish beliefs and pitiful attempts at scientific accuracy.
The men of future times does, too.

(To very badly and innacurately quote from memory Terry Pratchet, IIRC)

Until you start looking closer and find that much of the "ignorance" are myths appeared somewhere between then and now.

Yup, very likely indeed.

Also remember that while their conclusions where often false. They where still often based on observation and often had practical applications. So while the whole idea of spontaneous generation (lower life springing from base matter) was hokum it still meant the didn't leave raw meat lying around cause the didn't want to "generate" maggots and flies.

Exactly the point i´ve made many times before. Wrong assumptions or an incorrect understanding can still result in a correct result.


Nothing bad ever come from thinking of Terry Pratchett. Even if a person makes a poor inaccurate quote of Pratchett, it is still better than almost anyone else's best quote!