Identifying the Realm of vis

I agree but that's not the logic imposed on other spells in the published books. ReVi wards, for example, are specific to each realm and thus work only on infernal without an Intellego requisite. The spell for cleansing infernal vis only works on that specific realm. Demon's Eternal Oblivion can be safely cast on areas, knowing that it will only target the infernal. With this level of precision it's easy to make other spells that only target the infernal and thereby reveal all.

Wards and DEO are the exceptions that prove the rule.

I'd ask you to find a Muto spell that changes something based on meeting a specific requirement or parameter that should be unknown to the spell caster.

So your argument is that, other than Wards and DEO, Vim spells are not realm specific? I don't think you'd be happy with the implications of that. All the examples in the rulebooks indicate that you have to specifically choose Magic/Faerie/Infernal and possibly Divine, depending on whether the rules interpretation allows hermetic magic to affect that.

It's not a Muto rule, it could as easily be Rego or anything else. ReVi(Infernal): make the targeted creature jump up and down and quack like a duck would be quite legal.

I might object less to an Infernally aligned Muto spell working all the time if the magus casting it were infernally tainted somehow and could be corrupted. Again, my original premise is that infernal things that are not intelligent should be detected, so InVi on infernal vis or auras should be able to tell you it's infernal. If you cast spells on Demons, you shouldn't be able to get perfect/correct answers, regardless of whether the spell is infernally aligned.

The whole realm alignment for me is a bigger issue that I'm not going to discuss here. I think it makes sense for some things (dragon's eternal, demon's eternal, and fairies eternal oblivion), but even then...

Hmm, I guess my thinking was coming from the opposite direction, which came out really wrong. :blush: I was thinking that no one uses divine-aligned vis, at least not the way that infernalists and faerie wizards use vis, so as far as the denizens of the realm are concerned there is no such thing.

RoP:I has a section talking about what characters know of tainted vis. I don't currently have a reference, but if I recall correctly characters without Infernal Lore 1 aren't even aware of the possibility of taint.

Holy Magic casters could - though admittedly they have less incentive.

I assume they want to make longevity potions and magic items just like anyone else.

I think that implies they can still use vis :stuck_out_tongue:

Yeah, holy magi can probably use it without penalty, though I don't remember offhand if that is specifically listed among the benefits of Holy Magic. It might be appropriate that even holy magi don't like using divinely-aligned vis, because it's basically sacred, touched by the divine in the same way as a relic. In any case, I am pretty sure that other hedge wizards associated with the divine don't use vis at all, and certainly wouldn't allow magi to take it or trade for it. (Well, okay, maybe in the Suhhar Suleiman...)

While not explicitly stated, it is strongly implied that they can use it without penalty. Whether they would want to is another question entirely.

Why not? It would seem preferable to using secular vis? After-all, using the powers of relics or saints is not problematic.

I struggle to see why there would be a problem trading (or even more likely just giving vis away to those in need, as that would be charitable). I can see that some potential particular Hermetic usages of Divine vis might be objectionable, and selling Divine vis could be construed as simony, but, simony only needs to be problematic for (pious) mainstream Christian Divine characters (and Divine hedge wizards are almost by definition not mainstream Christians, to a greater or lesser extent).

If the Hermetic magi agree to not use Divine vis in "bad" ways, it is hard to see what the problem is. Presumably, (in-character, if not in game-mechanics) the Divine taint means that using the vis in ways that are at variance with the Divine plan is likely to be risky. The Hermetic magi have the free will to use the vis for good or evil and will suffer the consequences accordingly (c.f. Apple of Knowledge).