If you had to limit the order to 7 houses which would you keep?

Random question but let's say atlas decided to make a reboot of ars magica and they decided that instead of 12 houses it would be 7. What would be your choices for the 7 houses?

I would probably rework the Houses, instead of keeping 7 and jettisoning 5. For example, it would be reasonable to merge Merinita and Bjornaer into a "nature" House; and Flambeau and Tytalus into a "conflict" House. But if I had to keep 7 Houses as they are presented in ArM5 (N.B., for some of them that's quite different from how they are presented in previous editions), they would be:

Bonisagus (without them, no Order)
Mercere (without them, no Redcaps)
Tremere (without them, no Certamen or Schism War; good bogeymen)
Merinita (without them, no Faerie Magic)
Bjornaer (this is the one I'd jettison if I had to go down to six)
Flambeau (possibly the most iconic house, and a source of conflict if Tytalus are left out)
Ex Miscellanea (the go-to house for non-Hermetic stuff)

In other words, I'd toss out:
Guernicus (after all, magi from other Houses can serve as Quaesitors)
Verditius (specializing in magic items is just an another axis for a magus of any House)
Criamon (in my view, ArM5 HoH:MC robbed them of what made them special)
Tytalus (Flambeau and Tremere can cover their role decently enough; Pralix would work even better as a maga Triamonae)
Jerbiton (this is probably the one I'd keep if I could keep 8 Houses: the interaction with mundanes and Art is nice, but can be offloaded to other Houses - in particular Mercere - without too much trouble).

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It's less about who you keep, but more about who you kick out.

Tytalus and Criamon allow for the most annoying instances of people using the "but that's how my character would behave", so they are gone.

Verditus can go because anyone who has any idea around using items, is pigeon holed in to Verditus, or being second rate.

Maybe last to throw out is Jerbiton and Merinita. The order is meant not to interfere with Mundanes or fae where possible, and these two, that's there thing.

Similar to Ezzelino, but I drop Merinita instead of Guernicus. I appreciate others can be Quaesitors, but Guernicus' part in the schism war, and his focus on the rule of law, I feel is important.

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The two I will toss without shedding a tear are: Criamon and Bjornaer. Those two houses, with their inner Mysteries are self sufficient and very self-centered, they could exist outside the Order. Sure, they benefit from the Order, but they don't feel integrated.

Verditus is a close second to go: on one hand, item crafter are such iconic character, but on the other hand, I have seen too many dwarves, Weak & Diff Spont enchanters (in my game, I am not saying you cannot do other Verditius, but this is my snap shot). Just keep some of their virtues to allow enchanter magis in other houses, or make it another Mystery Cult minus the house.

I would merge Tytalus/Tremere and Flambeau in a single, military-oriented house, with two divided currents: the lonesome fighter one and the organised, well-structured collaborative one.

And I agree with @ezzelino , get rid of house Guernicus and keep Quaesitors in each house.

Now, if I could rework the Houses a bit, including merging, I could actually drop their number to four while keeping all the necessary concepts. To reduce confusion, I'll write in bold the names when they refer to the reworked version, and keep the basic font to refer to the current version. So Bonisagus covers House Bonisagus, minus Triamonae, plus a little Guernicus.

  • House Bonisagus. The scholars, the great architects, the makers of laws and rituals and enchantments. They created Hermetic Magic and they are still its undisputed masters. They created the Hermetic Order and they still view themselves as its stewards. They are the original Quaesitores and many ceremonial roles like presiding over a Tribunal are theirs, though magnanimously they have accepted that the role of Quaesitor should be spread across the Houses. They cover the roles of Bonisagus (but not magi Trianomae), and of slightly weakened House Guernicus and House Verditius.

  • House Mercere. The UnGifted. Their Gifted founder was the first student of Bonisagus, particularly adept at travel and diplomacy, covering the role of Triamona in the formation of the Order, but losing his (her?) Gift before forming a lineage. His (her?) descendants, the True Mercere, are all UnGifted (and all Unaffected by the Gift) and yet they have turned this weakness into an advantage, as everyone else fears them less and trusts them more. They are the messengers, diplomats, spies, merchants - and since the time of Larta, the artists of the Order. They cover the roles of Redcaps, magi Trianomae, and magi of House Jerbiton.
    A granddaughter of Mercere, Pralix melded together a rabble of minor magicians to defeat the Spider in the early 9th century. Eventually, they were brought into the Order as part of her House, which since then hosts many UnGifted "Hedge Wizards". Thus Mercere covers much of the role of ex-Miscellanea, too.

  • House Bjornaer. A Germanic House, though one that preserved the secrets of the ancient Roman priestesses of Diana. Mystics rather than scholars, they comprehend the incomprehensible and become incomprehensible in turn; they speak in riddles and mark their bodies with strange tatoos. They are nature magi, fabled shapeshifters, and dreamwalkers. Of all the Houses, they understand Faeries and Twilight best. They cover the role of Bjornaer, Merinita, and Criamon (the corebook Criamon, rather than the HoH;MC ones).

  • House Flambeau. A house of soldiers, but also of lone warriors, holy crusaders, and assassins. Staunch defenders of the Order, and always united against outside enemies, they are constantly seeking conflict, often between themselves, They claim this keeps them strong; it did keep them from conquering the Order (which they almost did, under their primus Tremere, in the latter half of the 9th century). They single-handedly destroyed the fifth House, Diedne, at the turn of the millennium, and no other House dared to condemn them for it. They cover the roles of House Flambeau, Tremere and Tytalus.

  • House Diedne. The Lost, the Fifth House. Don't talk about them. Particularly in front of the Flambeau.

Hard to say, and probably the wrong question to ask, as opposed to "If the OoH had to have only 7 Houses, what sort of Houses would those be?".
That said, with the OP's question in mind, here's a few thoughts:

First ones to cut loose:

  1. Criamon. As mentioned, they aren't what they used to be, and to be honest, they aren't terribly well integrated into the OoH. I suspect they could be removed and little would be changed. Few would notice.
  2. Mercere. Sad as this makes me, we don't really need them much. Or at least, my troupe has been so enthusiastic about inventing telecommunication via spells and items, that having a full House of messengers seem extravagant. Seriously, ideas and projects have been dropped in order to not make enemies of House Mercere.
  3. Verditius. This one hurts as I personally enjoy playing Verditius Magi. But at the same time, I know that several of my sodalis have decided not to bother with making devices (and their players not really bothering to learn the rules for them) because of these specialists. Removing this House would probably again, require very little re-writing of the history of the Order.
  4. At this point, it's worth asking if Mystery Cults separate from houses will still be a thing? Because if so, houses Merinita and Bjornaer can both be easily removed and turned into MCs.
  5. Jerbiton. Meh. Barely have a niche. TBH I've seen their "thing" (talking with mundanes) done just as well by others (often Tremere).

What Houses to keep, if we'd like to limit the need for a re-writing.

  1. Bonisagus. Not because it's necessary for it's niche (does it really have one?) but because without it, we might as well re-write the whole thing ground up.
  2. Tremere/Tytalus/Ex Misc. Might not be the most popular of houses, but they feature significantly in the lore. So much so that they kinda need to stay. Also, I rather like them, at least in their 5th edition versions.

It's complicated:

  1. Guernicus. As mentioned by @ezzelino above, they aren't really needed as magi from any house can hold the title of Quaesitor. On the other hand, they are fairly deeply ingrained in the history of the OoH. So yeah.
  2. Flambeau. Much the same as with House Guernicus. Magi from any house can be soldiers/fighters. Meh. Their absence would necessitate re-writing some lore, but the concept is hardly unique enough to be irreplaceable.

Just (some of) my thoughts, obviously.

I think I would just drop all the societates, simply because there is nothing unique about them. Magi of any house could take their attitudes and skills. Maybe we should keep Ex Misc, though.

Puiblishing, one should probably drop Tremere, which is found unplayable by too many troupes.

That leaves seven.

Personally, I would like to keep all the true lineages, though, including Tremere, because they are families with common goals, roles, and responsibilities, to some extent. Bjornar and Verditius have much of the same. These six are the ones that really feel like houses.

Merinita, in spite of being a mystery cult, is not really a cult. The house more like a societate than a cult.

So I suppose we should drop the societates and Merinita. That leaves seven.

The faerie magic cult could live on as a non-house mystery cult, if you miss Merinita.

If someone wonders why I did not mention Criamon, it is because I do not grok them, and should not really have an opinion at this stage.

If the OoH had to have only 7 Houses, what sort of Houses would those be?

Interesting thought. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that

A house of scholars, architects, and experimenters (think: Bonisagus, with a touch of Verditius)
A house of soldiers, warriors, and assassins (think: Tremere + Flambeau + Tytalus)
A house of mystics, oracles, and prophets (think: Criamon, plus a little Bjornaer and Merinita)
A house of diplomats, judges, and historians (think: Quaesitor + Jerbiton + Trianoma Bonisagus)
A house of tricksters, illusionists, and shapeshifters (think: Bjornaer + Merinita + Tytalus)
A house of travellers, explorers, and storytellers (think: Mercere)
A house of which nothing is known, shrouded in secrecy

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Diedne?

This question was asked on reddit a while back, so I'll just copy/paste my reply from there and slightly elaborate.

I would keep Bonisagus, Flambeau, Jerbiton, Tremere, Merinita, Tytalus, and Bjornaer.

Reasons for chucking the others:

Mercere can exist as a social class of "uber grog" with the legal status of magi. No need for a distinct house.

Guernicus mostly matters because of the Quaesitors who can just be from other houses. No need for a distinct house.

Criamon is silly (sorry Enigma fans). Also, with the rules for mystery cults, I feel that Criamon's philosophy is niche enough in Mythic Europe that it would work better as a "hidden", cross-house cult, than as a whole house.

While I have a soft spot for Ex Misc I think the existence of well-supported Hedge Magic rules makes them less interesting than just having fully non-Hermetic magical traditions in the game. No need for a distinct house. Stray weirdos who join the Order can join whatever house fits them best.

I like Verditius but would fold them into House Tremere (hear me out!) as a subgroup focused on magic items. Enchanted items preserve the strengths of individual magi to forever strengthen the whole. This is a very "Tremere" take on enchantment which I would prefer to the slightly one-note jealous artistes of 5th ed.

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The problem with dropping Guernicus and Mercere is that you have to rewrite the history of the founding. While the houses are less important in 13C, with widespread teleportation and quaesitores in any house, they were instrumental in the founding.

Maybe a new thread on what if there were only seven founders?

Perhaps they were founders but early on they declared that their lineage would not be Houses? I love the idea of downplaying all of the Houses except perhaps Bonisagus (the prestigious house) and Ex Misc (the misfits who are looked down on). They mattered back in the day but by the 12th/13th centuries no one worried about that stuff.

Instead faerie magic, heartbeasts, various enigma and Criamom paths, Verditius stuff, some of the Tytalus stuff, mutantum magic, and specialized Quaesitor magic (plus other things as needed or desired) can become mystery cults. It would require some reworking of mystery cults to make them more impactful, player buy in on having various things locked behind cult membership, reworking the existing mystery cults, and probably a restriction on a magus being in more than one cult.

Ultimately I'm rather sick of Houses being important. It smacks too much of Harry Potter and silly college rivalries. I'd rather that the important thing be the connections that the various mages make throughout their lives not merely who found them first as a Gifted youth.

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If you're dropping down to only 7 Houses you've pretty much committed to re-writing the Order's history, regardless. So that doesn't seem like much of a concern.

Assign a random Founder to have been the first Quaesitor (Trianoma?) and another Founder to have lost his Gift to serve as the first Redcap. The Quaesitores acting collectively can take over the historical actions of House Guernicus. You'll have to re-assign tethered magic since there aren't magi Mercere, but that can just be another House Bonisagus breakthrough.

In fact, I think that having Tremere organize the Redcap system would have been a much shrewder power play than any of his canonical attempts.

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Too shrewd, no?

Guernicus establishes one important feature, namely DIvision of Power. The independence and non-voting of Guernicus and redcaps is quite critical for political stability, and having Trianoma take Guernicus' role sounds like one of the most unstable paths there are. (Second to Tremere controlling the redcaps of course.)

However, having Guernicus dissolve their house early on, relying instead on quaesitores appoint across houses, could work.

But the harder question remains, why do we want to have houses at all?

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The idea of Houses was to provide a number of "premade templates" for new players.
A bit like character classes in D&D, but with more freedom to go against the trope.
Or Mage Traditions in MtA. Or Solar Castes in Exalted.
Let's not forget Ars Magica is a 1980s game.

Now, why do we want Houses at all now?
The main answer is that not having them would be too significant a departure from "old" Ars Magica, and David Chart / Atlas Games were very keen on ensuring "adequate" continuity despite introducing a number of innovations. But yes, in a completely new game about Wizards in Mythic Europe, I'd scratch the pre-made Houses. I'd certainly keep the idea of wizard "lineages" and "secret societies", but I'd allow each player to make his own character's.

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I would advise to keep Houses precisely due to their original idea of providing ready-made stereotypes that showcase the possibilities and give direction to starting players and groups. I think that's important.

With that in mind, the Houses I'd suggest:

  • Bonisagus in the Tradition of the Founder as specialists in one aspect of magic, such as one Art, Magic Theory, or so on. And valuing just practicing vanilla Hermetic magic.
  • Ex Misc founded by a descendant of Trianoma, focusing on integrating foreign magic. Thus Seekers can be in House Bonisagus or in House Ex Misc.
  • Tytalus focusing on Spirit Magic, with a strong hint of diabolism.
  • Tremere with a focus on self-control, including corporeal necromancy and strong will, with typical vampire-like powers such as inhuman speed and strength, bending others to your will, and so on.
  • Jerbiton split between holy magic or at least pro-Divine, and Orphean-like magical artists.
  • Merinita split between Nature Magic and Faerie Magic. With Bjornaer as an Order-wide Mystery Cult of Nature Magic strongly associated with this House.
  • Flambeau as combat magi, valuing personal valor more than true combat efficiency.

Houses not included:

  • Guernicus not needed, just have Quaesitors from whatever House.
  • Criamon not needed, weird mystics work better as a Mystery Cult or lone eccentrics.
  • Mercere dropped, just have official messangers accorded certain rights (not a vote!) under the Peripheral Code.
  • Verditius is missed, I would prefer to keep it as I think it works better as a House. Its magic is too weird otherwise. But if seven is to be the magical number, then make it into an order-wide Mystery Cult, or just an Ex Misc tradition.

If I were building the Order from scratch, I wouldn't have them. I think individual lineages and "families" might develop significance, and I like the idea of mystery cults forming, but they don't need to be as much like WOD splats as the Houses are now.

For your earlier comment: I don't really mind rewriting the history of the Founders, but I'm also happy having some of the Founders of the Order not be Founders of Houses. Guernicus and Mercere can be in the same bracket as Trianoma. Guernicus cared more about passing on his legal philosophy to other magi than training apprentices of his own; and Mercere lost his Gift and so founded a society of messengers as per canon (they just don't call it a House, because the passing down of magical power doesn't happen).

To be honest, I'd miss the history of the foundation of Ex Misc more than either of them - but happily, in my alt timeline we can still say Pralix formed the Ordo Ex Miscellanea, which remained a group of hedge wizards with the Parma, and never re-merged with the larger Order. This would radically change the Tribunals in the British Isles, of course - perhaps a kind of uneasy peace where the OEM keeps Great Britain while the OoH is allowed supremacy elsewhere, could work, a bit like the Connacht situation in Hibernia.

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A really interesting question. I hate it. :slight_smile:

The "hate" is because I think the game is very well served by having more Houses than are needed. Lots and lots of hooks and possible nuances for characters, and I think it makes for a particularly rich setting.
But to actually answer the question ...

I'd keep:
Bonisagus - While the House does have other facets, it serves the lab-rats extremely well, and lab-rattery is one of Ars's unique(?) strengths.

Tytalus - I love the background/backstory, and I think they can make for great characters and NPCs. I'd want to take my own stab and presenting them in a way that'd, hopefully, short-circuit the complaints groups sometimes have about Tytalus PCs.

Tremere - I'd want to revert back to the more sinister version of earlier editions. Never many Tremere PCs in my games, but I think they're one of the best ideas, setting-wise.

Ex Miscellanea - A wonderful grab-bag of not-quite-right (in the Hermetic sense) wizards. A particularly good bit of Hermetic history, IMO.

Bjornaer - nature focuses without the ExM baggage, and the classic shapeshifters.

Jerbiton - A must-include for me because of the material in the Thebes book. Plus a good source of tension within the Order: Everybody else might be perfectly happy if the Order adopted a strong isolationist (at best) policy toward the mundane world.

Flambeau - All through history, most people have wanted to be wizards just to throw fireballs. This is a safe space - admit it.

Dropping:
Guernicus - They become a pseudo-lineage within several Houses.

Mercere - Similar to Guernicus.

Verditius - Spread the item love ...

Criamon - I was pretty unhappy with the direction they were taken in 5th, somewhat unified behind a particular philosophy. I'd rather see them as more generic mystics - those who believe some things cannot merely be learned, they must be experienced. Mystics could work as a House, but would be fine as a movement or tendency within several Houses.

Merinita - Similar to Criamon: A tendency/movement within other Houses. A good source of tension.

Interesting. This spread kinda reminds me of the orders in mage the awakening.

Bonisagus - mysterium
Mercere - silver ladder
Bjornear - free council in way
Flambeau - adamantine arrow
Diedne - the seers of the throne equivalent assuming they arent all dead.