Illusions should be Resisted

[YR7]

Illusions should be resisted by Magic Resistance. It just doesn't make any sense that you create species (CrIm), but they aren't magical. That's the domain of Momentary Creo Rituals. No, created images should be a magical substance and as such resisted. Likewise species under the effect of Muto.

Now the idea is, supposedly, that you're affecting the process of generating the species by the object. But that's making a major supernatural change to the object, akin to making an animal acquire the mind of a human. Thus, a MuFo(Im) high level effect; perhaps the Im guidelines should be consulted for increases in magnitude and Finesse requirements, but the change isn't in the species, in Imaginem, it is in the Form of the object being manipulated.

So why aren't illusions resisted in the RAW? I suspect it is to prevent the strange circumstance where magi don't notice illusions yet mundanes do. This is a strange artifact, and should be avoided. I suggest, however, that a simpler change be made - that unlike other magical things blocked by the Parma species are still noticeable when they're arrested, they just appear vague, weak, and illusionary. This will allow magi to realize an image is illusory, and avoid falling for illusions if they're protected by MR. A magus wanting to affect another with illusions better penetrate his Parma, just like he would need to with other effects.

This change is far less drastic than the current one, which claims one can use Creo Imaginem to change the way the Animal sheds species - a completely different Form, or even somehow shed natural species out of thin air (without raw vis).

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@YR7

Illusions should be resisted by Magic Resistance. It just doesn't make any sense that you create species (CrIm), but they aren't magical. That's the domain of Momentary Creo Rituals. No, created images should be a magical substance and as such resisted. Likewise species under the effect of Muto.

Now the idea is, supposedly, that you're affecting the process of generating the species by the object. But that's making a major supernatural change to the object, akin to making an animal acquire the mind of a human. Thus, a MuFo(Im) high level effect; perhaps the Im guidelines should be consulted for increases in magnitude and Finesse requirements, but the change isn't in the species, in Imaginem, it is in the Form of the object being manipulated.

So why aren't illusions resisted in the RAW? I suspect it is to prevent the strange circumstance where magi don't notice illusions yet mundanes do. This is a strange artifact, and should be avoided. I suggest, however, that a simpler change be made - that unlike other magical things blocked by the Parma species are still noticeable when they're arrested, they just appear vague, weak, and illusionary. This will allow magi to realize an image is illusory, and avoid falling for illusions if they're protected by MR. A magus wanting to affect another with illusions better penetrate his Parma, just like he would need to with other effects.

This change is far less drastic than the current one, which claims one can use Creo Imaginem to change the way the Animal sheds species - a completely different Form, or even somehow shed natural species out of thin air (without raw vis).

It's one of those situations where playability creates a visible seam in the game world.

Bascially, if you decide, a priori, that you want people to be able to play illusionists, you then need to decide what they can do. In ArM3, things went too far: illusionists were clearly the most powerful type of magus. In the current edition, illusionists are playable, but there's a problem in setting, as you say.

If we followed your ideas, then basically illusionists are pretty worthless, in game, because every supernatural creature and virtually every peasant with aq stone that has a hole in it can just ignore.

Now, in game, we come up with the best handwave we can. If you make blinding light that shoots into the eyes of a target, sure, its resisted. If you make an illusionary snake, then its not, because it just makes natural apecies, much as a magical fire makes real heat and real child-fires.

Now, you can then try to break this down and say "See, this doesn't work, illusionists should be unplayable" and the basic reply is that the game is better with the handwave, because some of us like playable illusionists, and we take it on faith that if you are willing to imagine the Order of Hermes, we'd like to think you can stretch it far enoiugh to give us illusionists too.

So, the thing is that just because you are right, doesn't mean, on the higher level of the game -as a game- that I'd advocate your solution to the problem.

[YR7]

@Timothy Ferguson

If we followed your ideas, then basically illusionists are pretty worthless, in game, because every supernatural creature and virtually every peasant with aq stone that has a hole in it can just ignore.

Good points, all, but I don't get it. Why is virtually any peasant immune to illusions? (Under my suggestion.) He has no MR, the spells work on him just fine. Every supernatural creatue has resistance, sure, but it has resistance to the Flamebau's fire spells too. And illusion spells are pretty low level, generally, so chances are the illusionist will have a higher penetration.

I just don't see why requiring illusions to penetrate just like any other spell would render illusionists worthless. The only problem is the application of Arcane Connections to amplify Penetration, and I can certainly see a rule saying illusions can be tailored-made to be especially potent against someone when cast with an arcane connection to him (allowing the caster to utilize the full options of Penetration, as if casting the spell on the target).

[Iudicium]

I agree and disagree with many of the things said here. The coherence and consistency of the rules is one subject I like to think about (when leisure and time permit ^^)

So why aren't illusions resisted in the RAW?

First, I don't think logic should prevail when thinking about the making of rules. Using logic about rules, one could demonstrate two opposite theory about the same subject.

If the spirit (mentem) and the body (corpus) are two separate and different things, then I could demonstrate that the process (or ability) of affecting the senses to be a separate category from any other material objects. This also could be consistent and logical.

I think that logic alone is good method of analysis about this kind of rule problem, but a bad way to resolve them.
The sheer fun one will have with such rules is the most important thing IMHO.

f we followed your ideas, then basically illusionists are pretty worthless,

Second, I don't see having illusions being resisted as a problem to game balance for illusionnist ? This just makes "indirect" illusions less efficient against those who have MR, at the same level as for any other spells. I see it as down powering Imaginem, but at a much lesser level than T.F. seems to defend.

The only problem is the application of Arcane Connections to amplify Penetration,

I know the rules about AC (in ArsM5, p.84) state that an AC need to be to the target, but that rule is not very consistent with, IMHO, the spirit of the system itself . For exemple, a Pilum of Fire target not your ennemy:it target the fire created. If your target is Structure, then you can set aflame castle: usually, you need to penetrate the MR of the people inside it, and not the Castle itself! Of course the spell will works even if it doesn't penetrate your ennemy:
Would you say that a Flambeau have no use for an AC when casting CrIg spells ?

The rule say (AM5 p.84):"...is an Arcane Connection to something else, the target, if..."
In the Penetration section : ... "the character have an Arcane Connection to the target of the magic."

I think those sentences should be read to say that the word "target" doesn't mean "target of the spell". It should be understood as "whatever/whoever the spell will affect" as this is within the usual use of that word: "target". Also, this is more intuitive, and more consistent with the spirit of the rules.
AoFR should be Target: ind. with Size +2, not "group", etc. This is (probably) a remnant of 4th ed.
There may be other exemples...

Finally, I think having Imaginem spells t penetrate could be a correct house rule. You could keep in mind that Imaginem can't do nothing directly (not without having to penetrate): maybe this makes for a counter-balance.

I never noticed that there could be an inconsistency in the rules about imaginem in that way, thanks for sharing !
My own troupe didn't encountered problem with those spells not penetrating, maybe we will: i'll keep this thread in mind then.

[David_Chart]

@YR7

So why aren't illusions resisted in the RAW? I suspect it is to prevent the strange circumstance where magi don't notice illusions yet mundanes do.

That's part of it. The other problem is MuIm being "invisibility to wizards". And the fact that most illusionists wouldn't be able to see their own illusions.

Illusions were resisted in the early drafts of ArM5. The result of playtest was that we needed a handwave around that, because it produced far too many problems.

This is a strange artifact, and should be avoided. I suggest, however, that a simpler change be made - that unlike other magical things blocked by the Parma species are still noticeable when they're arrested, they just appear vague, weak, and illusionary. This will allow magi to realize an image is illusory, and avoid falling for illusions if they're protected by MR. A magus wanting to affect another with illusions better penetrate his Parma, just like he would need to with other effects.

This makes even less metaphysical sense than the current situation. If magically-created species are resisted, then the creature with resistance cannot sense anything. Magic resistance doesn't "leak".

So, they aren't resisted because the result of playtest was that doing so caused fewer problems. If things are different in your game, by all means do it differently. The RAW are our best attempt at something that will work for most games as written, but they are unlikely to be perfect for any individual game. My ideal game would have a couple of minor House Rules. (I can't remember what they are, off hand. They're very minor...)

[YR7]

@David Chart

That's part of it. The other problem is MuIm being "invisibility to wizards". And the fact that most illusionists wouldn't be able to see their own illusions.

Those are problems.

This makes even less metaphysical sense than the current situation. If magically-created species are resisted, then the creature with resistance cannot sense anything. Magic resistance doesn't "leak".

"Hermetic theorists insist that when species hit Magical Resistance they are completely arrested. In so doing, however, they appear to unudlate the fabric of the the Parma's shell, releasing "echoes" that can be sensed by the magus. These always appear weaker and indistinct in comparison to the originals, and can easily be ignored. Some magi have attempted to utilize this effect to create powerful, distinct images - but echoes seem unable to produce such effects. A few Jerbiton magi, however, have invented spells that amplify echoes, restoring them to their original brilliance."

As long as we're handwaving.

I agree some kind of handwave is necessary. I'm wavering on which handwave is best - allowing Imaginem to affect the generation of species and thereby granting illusionists Ultimate Penetration, or allowing Magic Resistance to generate "echoes" and thereby make Magic Resistance an automatic illusion detector [just like it's an automatic magic detector, e.g. rejecting magical poison or so on].

So, they aren't resisted because the result of playtest was that doing so caused fewer problems. If things are different in your game, by all means do it differently. The RAW are our best attempt at something that will work for most games as written, but they are unlikely to be perfect for any individual game. My ideal game would have a couple of minor House Rules. (I can't remember what they are, off hand. They're very minor...)

Thanks a lot for your insights, David.