Image from the Wizard Torn ....

Ok if i want to make an illusionary version of myself to explore areas without bodily harm. can you use seven league stride or leap of home coming on the wizards torn image? and if so, since it is using a corpus arcane connection to you, would it still be self? or touch?

now after that, if a magnus was initiated into the inner mysteries of merinita glamour. could they manipulate objects with the illusion?

could a magnus keep an intangible tunnel open to the arcane connection and cast spells from there as if he were in that location ( up to the level dictated by the tunnel spell of course)?

I really don't want to be a killjoy. But that piece of you that travels around with the image, that fingernail or hair or whatever, I don't think that is part of your "self" anymore as far as spell range goes. Assuming your image has been moved beyond your range of normal senses, I don't even think it is touch, since you're not touching it. It MIGHT be sight, since you can see things at that location with the spell, but I think there is a clause in the core book saying you can't increase your range with magical senses. Which leads me to believe that you might need an arcane range to reach it. I also wonder if you have an arcane connection to it in the first place, but if it was recently a part of you, then you probably do, I'm not sure.

Once you are able to target the fingernail, maybe you can convince your storyguide to lower the base for magically transporting it somewhere else, since it's just made from human products and not a complete human, and that usually reduces the base for things. That's worth a shot. Otherwise if you wanted to transport it up to 7 leagues you would need the base of 30 plus 4 mags for the arcane range, and ouch, that's 50.

If you pulled that off, would the Image from the Wizard Torn spell even be maintained and follow the item? That seems a little questionable but okay.

I don't know about the glamour mysteries. I just responded because this is an interesting subject and I also want to see some answers to your question.

I think you could use Opening the Intangible tunnel, but only to target the fingernail or the image of yourself. You might need a different spell to be able to target things your arcane connection touches or sees, if that is even possible with Hermetic magic.

No need for Opening the Intangible Tunnle. You can see through the image and your voice can be heard through it as well. That's all you need to cast Range-Voice and Range-Sight spells.

Image of the Wizard Torn is an Imaginem spell without any Vim involved - so no remote spell casting, I'm afraid.

You cannot leap to the arcane connection, as it is a connection to you and not the other way round. Arcane connections are rarely bidirectional - it is an oft-discussed topic. On the other hand, you might be able create a spell that maintains an artificial connection with it (as it is possible to do with demons). In any case, the range would be Arcane Connection. (And no, keeping half of a lock of hair or the like doesn't connect to the other half; it still connects back to you.)

Even if you have Merinita Glamour, you won't be able to pick things up because glamour effect are explicitly Creo or Muto. You may get around designing a new version of the spell that works with those forms, but it may be tricky. At the very least, the added requisite will come with a magnitude raise or two.

You could use Open the Intangible Tunnel to cast spells, but remember that the arcane connection points in the wrong direction.

Now, it might also be possible to devise a version of the spell that animates and sends off a clay figure containing the arcane connection. That figure could be enchanted with additional effects which could be remotely triggered (it can InMe you at AC range, or by InIm-detectable actions of your remote presence)

Why not? Why do you even need a Vim requisite? Range - Voice only requires that your voice be heard, and Range - Sight only requires you to see. I know you are reacting on instinct and your logic may be sound, but where in the rules does it say you cannot do this? Not just implied. Does it for fact say you cannot do this?

"Magical enhancements of the voice do not increase this range" - page 112. That's more than enough for me. I'll always base spell ranges from where the magus really is, because that's where he really is.

I'll turn the question around: does it for a fact say that you can? Nowhere does it say that an Ignem spell cannot create a tree out of thin air. Yet, it cannot. That's Herbam. Show me the Imaginem guideline that lets you cast spells at another location and we'll talk (hint, it's really a ReVi guideline). Imaginem affect species, not magic.

If you want the connection you have to your projection to carry magic through, you'll need some Vim. And you'll most likely base your spell effect on Opening the Intangible Tunnel. With a shorter range because you have the object right there when you cast the spell. And a longer duration. And you'll add it to the other spell under the "combined effect" rules.

Curses! Got me there.
But what about Sight?

Although it's not explicitly written, I'll apply the same principle. Intellego Imaginem can let you detect targets, making them valid, but it won't enhance the range of the spells. If you stand on top of a mountain (as given in the guideline explanation), you can use InIm to be able to see that guy in the village over there clearly and thus target him, but if you're on the other side of a wall, making yourself able to see through the wall won't allow you to claim Sight range to that same guy. You can target him with your spells, because you've sensed him, just not at that range.

That is what I am getting at. Was wrong about Voice, but the Sight/Imaginem thing is a trick I used back in 4th edition. As you said, it is not explicitly written, so it is a YVMV issue.

Well, you know we rarely see eye-to-eye in these kind of arguments. I sincerely think you are being disingenuous, but, whatever, I don't want to be dragged again in the same kind of arguments as we've seen recently regarding PeVi fast-cast defenses. I hold that Imaginem does not open a conduit for your magic; Vim does. Your mileage decidedly varies from mine. So be it.

I am indeed being genuine. I used to do the Sight thing all the time in 4th edition; as a player using Image from the Wizard Torn, and as an SG using Enchantment of the Scrying Pool. It has not come up in 5th because it is not as useful, you cannot design your spells to be boosted to sight unless you have a special Virtue or use a special mastery.

But its not a matter of increasing range. Only changing its point of origin. :wink:

Agreed. But with such a ReVi connection as part of the spell, why not?

I'm perfectly fine with integrating some ReVi, as it is what I've been advocating from the beginning. :smiley:

True, but that's only with Voice Range. And it makes sense that Voice (and, I'll point out, only Voice, specifically) is so limitted. One can imagine simple CrIm spells increasing a mage's voice infinitely, and great thunderbooms of enhanced Voice casting echoing across all of Mythic Europe.

Range:Sight works differently.

In order to cast a spell on something, one must "sense" it - this phrase is repeated many times, again and again, and never with any proviso's barring magical enhancement. If the Image from the Wizard Torn allows a mage to sense a Target, and the Range on the spell is Sight, then they're good.

It's identical to many Intellego spells that allow one to "sense" where they cannot. In the dark, thru a fog, thru a wall, across a continent - same diff.

The significant distinction is that one need not first "Scry" to cast with Intangible Tunnel.

That's a valid interpretation, and I see where you're getting it, but I'm not sure I agree.

However, I currently am the Target (capital "T") of a Level 35 CreoMucum headcold, and could reverse my position in a day or two, and won't try to defend it with my usual idiom - my gift to all.

Okay i understand or at least am in the camp that arcane connections are not 2 way. so self range is not appropriate.

what i am asking is in transporting the IMAGE to another location instead of doing the traveling. CRE IM haunt the living ghost allows one to project the image but it isn't as free form as image torn. i was just wondering if i can cast a RE corpus spell on the arcane connection ( it is corpus matter still) and have the image enchantment go with it.

Now as for the intangible tunnel .. are you saying that opening a tunnel to the arcane connection ONLY allows you to affect the connection? i thought it would allow that connection to be a point of origin.

Kang wrote:

Assuming that you read my previous response and that didn't help, well, I think whether or not you can target the corpus matter depends on whether or not you have an arcane connection to it AS WELL AS it being an arcane connection to you. That might be possible. Maybe you can make a doll out of your hair, fix it as an arcane connection to you, then later take off one of the googoly eyes and fix that as an arcane connection to the doll! Then keep the eye and have your image run around with the doll. Man, this sounds creepy.

Anyway, whether or not transporting the arcane connection moves the image as well is something I don't know, but if I were the SG then yeah I would say the effort was worth the effect and it wouldn't be over-powerful.

Kang wrote again:

Yeah, that's what I was saying, I think that's how that spell works. It doesn't become a point of origin. The spell targets something, and then allows you to target that thing with touch-range spells. But you might design a new spell that does more.

It seems to me that the 'point of origin' of a magus-generated spell is always the gift powered magus. Range increments would be different otherwise. I suppose I could buy that the source is 'the gift', which brings up questions about it's location, especially when dealing with possession.