Implied Breakthroughs in Ars Magica Supplements

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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I'd like to enlist the whole community for a project I think would have some value:

Many of the alternative magical tradition books, Hedge Magic, Rival Magic, Cradle & Crescent, Book of Sand and Sea, Mythic Locations, etc have official suggestions for different types of breakthroughs for hermetic magi to integrate. However, upon close reading of the text, and I think this is intentional, one can find many other more subtle examples not spelled out.

This thread is for such implicit examples.

I have now updated this thread (again, Jan 18th, 2019) with what others have provided and a bit more of my own research.

Augustan Brotherhood
1.) Animo as a Hermetic Ability (Hermetic)

Amazons
1.) Vis-less enchantments

Muspelli:

1.) Everything? No breakthroughs are explicitly stated at all.

2.) Storms move with the Magus (Minor)

3.) A magus is immune to the effects of their storm (Minor)

4.) Grant temporary Confidence points (Hermetic)

5.) Nullify botch dice in the future (Hermetic)

6.) Reroll a failed or botched die roll in the future (Hermetic)

7.) Inflict botch dice on an enemy (Hermetic)

8.) Force a target to roll a stress die instead of a simple (Hermetic)

9.) Force a target to roll two dice and take the lower result (Hermetic)

10.) Revivify a Corpse, order it, question it, (Major or Hermetic)

Sahir of the Cradle and the Crescent:

1.) Limit of Time (Hermetic Breakthrough): Solomnic Astrology can see into the future, and divine the past.

2.) Limit of Aging ( or Hermetic): Sahir using a spirit can reduce their age through the Elixer of LIfe, it does have side effects however such as lost memories and XP. They also can remove aging points, but not decrepitude.

3a.) Directly Travel to the Magic or Faerie Realms (Major): Sahir can cast ritual spells to open portals to these realms. May or more may not include opening "Windows" into these realms to scry.

3b.) Directly Travel to the Magic Realm (Minor):Sahir can cast ritual spells to open portals to this realm. May or more may not include opening "Windows" to scry

4.) Corpus score giving a bonus to aging rolls. (Major)

5.) Convert Sihr into a Hermetic Virtue (Hermetic)

6.) Hermetic Item Empowerment with spirits (Major) (also see The Mysteries Revised Edition)

7.) Spirit Familiar (Major) (also see The Mysteries Revised Edition)

8.) Hermetic Dream Travel (Hermetic) (also see The Mysteries Revised Edition)

9.) Hermetic Thuergy (Major) (also see The Mysteries Revised Edition)

10.) Restore Fatigue (Hermetic)

11.) Restore Might to a supernatural creature (Major)

12.) True matter transmutation (Hermetic Breakthrough): Mythic Alchemy is not bound by the Limit of Essential Nature. (It's entirely possible that this cannot be duplicated; the inventors of alchemy were a Divine tradition after all...).

13.) Accelerated Experimental Philosophy (Hermetic, possibly Major Breakthrough): Solomonic Alchemy can do what Experimental Philosophy alchemy formulae, such as matter purification, can do in a single spell, which is either Rego-crafting without Finesse (not a Hermetic Limit, but a severe limitation of Rego's function) or Creo-transmutation without a ritual (Limit of Creation).

14.) vis-less Permanent effects from formulaic spells - see Erik Dahl's comment in https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/new-herbam-and-other-spells/157/1

Settutan

1.) Target(the Gift, or magical virtue) (Minor)

2.) Duration: Action (Minor)

3.) Target: Journey (Minor)

4.) Reduce Distance between two points (while travelling): (Major)

5.) Inflict Flaw, (Ability Block), (Major)

6.) Base effect: Target can't spend confidence points (Major)

7.) Base effect: Target suffers botch dice when attempting a particular activity (Major or Minor?)

Sorcerers of Soqotra:

1.) Faerie Enslavement

2.) Dispel Magic by Group (Same Art or Supernatural Effect)

3.) Remove Flaws that the character has gained (Hermetic)

4.) Restore lost virtues (Hermetic)

5.) Cure wounds, regrow limbs, and halt physical ailments without Vis (Duration: Regrowth) (Hermetic)

6.) Repair objects without vis (Duration: Regrowth) (Hermetic)

7.) Which ultimately implies, creating things without vis (Hermetic)

8.) Grant Virtues and Flaws (Hermetic)

Others?

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  1. It can be Minor, if the spells are reduced to the Magic Realm.

From any practicant about Shapechanger the Momentary transformation to overcome Magic Resistance problem.
On Rival Magics:
Of course, integrate the Animation to Hermetic, and like other Supernatural Abilities, some of them are very interesting to recreate or adapt to Magic from the Muspelli. Of course, the magical items without Vis from Amazonians too.
Many parameters from other Realms. And I am not sure about Creo Vim guidelines to recover Might Score to not Infernal beings...

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True matter transmutation (Hermetic Breakthrough is an understatement): Mythic Alchemy is not bound by the Limit of Essential Nature. (It's entirely possible that this cannot be duplicated; the inventors of alchemy were a Divine tradition after all...).

Accelerated Experimental Philosophy (Hermetic, possibly Major Breakthrough): Solomonic Alchemy can do what Experimental Philosophy alchemy formulae, such as matter purification, can do in a single spell, which is either Rego-crafting without Finesse (not a Hermetic Limit, but a severe limitation of Rego's function) or Creo-transmutation without a ritual (Limit of Creation).

Incidentally, Solomonic Alchemists might want to develop, through Original Research because Solomonic Magic has no mechanism for Integration like Hermetic theory does, Breakthroughs that absorb the guidelines for Mythic Alchemy. Preparing crafting materials would be a Minor Breakthrough, true transmutation rituals would be a Solomonic Breakthrough+ (again, Limit of Essential Nature).

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Solomonic Alchemy has been partially integrated on some extent on Verditius, on the repair and reuse of Invested Vis.

(I will take one chance to ask about something, is it possible to extract Vis form one charged item with Solomonic Alchemy?)

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Since there isn't any vis in the item in the first place, I'd have to say no.

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Ok, thank you; but I can imagine than Mechanica of Heron products and Amazonian enchanted objects are founts of vis (again, implied, Enchantments without Vis).

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Sure, a mechanica is worth a pawn of vis. Now, while you're breaking down a mechanica, I'll be over here just drawing on the aura. (I don't think that the Mechanica of Heron vis-free enchantment is integratable. Fundamentally different mechanics, if you'll pardon the pun.)

Amazonian vis-less craft enchantments...Ancient Magic is way ahead of you. Hermetic Breakthrough, available through Hyperborean Hymns.

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*bump

I've updated the first post. As I've said, Hedge Magic, Ancient Magic, Rival Magic, C&C and anything else are all up for more if anyone has ideas.

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Soqotrans: the spark, better familiar binding, faerie enslavement.

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Clarification: True matter transmutation is Mythic Alchemy, not Solomonic.

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I'm still kinda new to this game, and so my experience with the integration process is severely limited, but would it be possible as a Major Breakthrough to integrate the Soqotran's ability to dispel effects by group rather than sub-tradition? All of their Arts have a General guideline for dispelling things of the same Art or any Supernatural effect that would fall under that Art, and I was thinking you could try to integrate that guideline. It's of rather limited utility to the Soqotrans themselves, but would be a major step up for Hermetic magi (who can only use their strongest dispels against magic they're very familiar with).

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i don't believe the sahir break the limit of aging. they can't affect decrepitude in any way.

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That is true - but they do reverse age. Thoughts?

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They absolutely break the Limit of Aging. Longevity rituals mitigate the effects of aging, they don't prevent aging itself. Al-Iksir reverses aging.

Mechanically, one difference is that longevity rituals hit a point of diminishing returns, and Al-Iksir doesn't - sahirs can live forever without even becoming immortal.

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im pretty sure the book itsself says" thus they eventually do die of old age"

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The book is incorrect.

Essentially, any sahir with a spare Might 10 spirit and enough taqa to do some lab work every 20 years can remain 20 years old, forever, and never pick up any aging or decrepitude points barring extreme bad luck, since Solomonic Alchemy and Solomonic Physic grant huge bonii to aging rolls, and because the sahir's penalty for years lived never goes very high.

Do the math yourself if you don't believe me.

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Removing an Aging point does not remove the decrepitude point, though.
Even later in that same section it stipulates that Decrepitude is not removed.

So, if you have 2 aging points in Int and have a score of 3 and want to avoid dropping to Int 2, the next time you are hit with an aging point in Int, you can do that. The decrepitude has already accumulated.

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[quote="Jonathan.Link"]
So how often does a sahir who can keep him/herself elixired up catch an aging point in the first place?

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My understanding, is that the Sahir under the effects of the Al-Iksir ages normally, it doesn't provide a bonus to subsequent aging rolls like a Hermetic Longevity Ritual.
It becomes possible to reverse the affects of aging, with the exception of decrepitude. It's as if they bottled Unaging minor virtue, they still accumulate decrepitude, but the aging points are ignored, although a bad aging roll might will make them lose a point in a characteristic, it can be recover with Al-Iksir.

Now, the bonuses for Alchemy and Physic, what bonuses are those? The Form bonus, that is the total divided by 5...?

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Reading it a couple of times, it seems to me that the bonuses from Solomonic Physic and Solomonic Alchemy are the supernatural form bonuses, akin to the Hermetic Form bonuses, and are the score divided by five (I'll round up to be generous).
So the bonuses aren't as huge as they appear. Someone with 16 in both Physic and Alchemy would get a +8 to their Aging roll. (16/5=3.2, rounds up to 4). Even if we presumed their Art score topped out at 30, and they could get it to that level rather quickly, their aging bonus would then be +12. And a sahir wouldn't take the Elixer early, when he was 20, because he would then start aging (making rolls) at that age and forever more.

That's a Sahir at the top of their game in two Forms. I have a Corpus specialist in one Saga, and he can generate LR 13s, and he's nowhere near the top of his game, or have a tricked out lab designed to maximize Corpus or Longevity rituals.

What am I missing?

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