Increasing a skill with CrCo

In RoP:M, page 38 a power for magic creatures is below:


Does that imply that you could also do this sort of thing with hermetic magic? Other powers say this:


when there is no hermetic equivalent, where the grant a skill power even has the calculation of the hermetic level.

I am finding I make more mistakes than correct takes when thinking about hermetic magic and ars magica, so what do people think? Is this implying that the MuCo 2 quideline of "change someone to give them a minor ability" covers magic additions to skills?

I think this only becomes controversial if it is read in pure mechanical terms, to give anybody any bonus under any circumstances without justification. The tricky part should be to explain how the body (Co) is changed (Mu) in a helpful way for the given purpose.

Gift of the Bears Fortitude is a typical Hermetic instance of the same power. There might be others. IIRC there might be downsides as well.

This is not going to go over-board, I don't think. It isn't Creo magic, where instant rituals would be possible. Extensive use means warping.

In principle, I would not assume that a might power can be Hermetically recreated, even if a level is given. The level could be meant as a rough guideline, even if the spell breaks Hermetic limits. However, this is not the case here, since there are Hermetic examples of the same effect. I would allow it if and only if an adequate narrative justification is given.

I personally don't think so. I agree that it can be read that way though.
I think keeping a few limits on Hermetic Magic is good for the game.

It seemed quite open, and surprised me. So I thought I would take collective wisdom.

The discussion of memory in HoH:S p68-70 says memory/knowledge of how to do something cannot be copied/created by Hermetic Magic.
There are also no general "Grant Virtue" spells in Hermetic Magic, though some other magical systems have that.

As to the grant virtue, the powers which gave virtues are the ones which I copied saying that it had no hermetic equivalent.

It was only one listing a power and another saying there was not one which confused me

I believe this could be done with hermetic magic, with the following caveat: Grant Puissance in (Ability) is a template power, and no spell should replicate the exact effect. But I don't see a specific problem with using MuCo base 2 guideline to grant a men or group of 10 men a bonus to Hunting checks, for example. Perhaps you increased their sense of smell. Write that into the effect you're designing. It's a different spell if you want to increase another ability. And each minor ability spell should be evaluated by the troupe to see if they make sense. The size of the bonus might vary from spell to spell.

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How would MuCo5 Eye of the Cat affect hunting?

You should be able to replicate a Virtue such as Sharp Ears and gain a reasonable bonus to activities.

Simple CrCo doesn't mechanically bestow skills or skill bonuses - as already said here.

Giving bonuses to specific Abilities by Hermetic Magic requires some creativity.

For an example, have a look at ArM5 p.136 Intuition of the Forest:

You get a +3 to all nature-oriented rolls (not including spells) when in a forest or similar area.

Not bad for a level 10 spell, eh?

Oh. I missed the title asking for CrCo. OP's example was MuCo.

CrCo would change the target into a more ideal individual of its form. We know that this is canonically possible for characteristics. Apparently, the ideal human being has +5 in all characteristics. As @ErikT points out, it is canonically impossible for memory and knowledge. Apparently, memory and knowledge are unrelated to the ideal form of a human being.

One can of course ask if the ideal human being has such virtues as tough or puissant athletics (athletics is hardly a knowledge YMMV). Ontologically, I reckon you can argue both ways. In terms of game balance, I think it could only be acceptable if instant Creo rituals end up at level 35+. This may or may not be the case. The quoted guideline at base 2 was for MuCo.

Muto is very different, as it makes completely unnatural changes. You can grant entirely new abilities by turning the target into a bear, fish, bird, or whatever. You can make more tailor made buffs by changing select parts of the target, but you have to describe the physical change. The bonus is a side effect to the magic.

Thus, the way to read the example in OP, is that this template power would be MuCo20 when an Hermetic equivalent can be found¹. It does not imply that every instance of the power can be Hermetically recreated. For instance, a creature could affect knowledge and memory to make a puissant ability, even if Hermetics cannot, although that would be MuMe and not MuCo.

¹ Although, this makes an inconsistency, as Gift of the Bear's Fortitude is Base 15 with a drawback on top. The Base 2 guideline seems absurdly low.

Ha, that's because I am an idiot and copied the wrong arts. But thanks guys that's all helpful.

Not impossible as such. It is noted that Hermetic Magic ought to be able to create and copy procedural and inscribed memories - but so far nobody has been able to figure out how do it.

If I recall correctly, the Hedge Magics that can bestow skills, generally need the caster to know the skill beforehand. Or am I misremembering that?

In that case, an experimenting magus risks botching while trying to learn how copy their skills to other characters. I can see so many magi risk losing skills tht way..... including Magic Theory.

That's new to me? Where is this indicated?

It is always possible I am misremembering. I don't have the necessary books in front of me, and I sometimes get 4th Ed rules and other games systems mixed up with 5th Ed. There are so many rules all over the place to remember.

Still, botching while trying to learn how to grant skills, sounds like a way to potentially lose skills.

You are misremembering that. It is a common-ish house rule that the caster need to have the virtue/ability to grant it, but RAW there is no such general rule.

Different spell guidelines. And yes, there's a drawback. I guess someone experimented, got a minor flaw, shared it widely anyway. But boosting soak is not rated the same way as gaining other skills.

No, but soak was one of the options covered by the template power, so it does address OP's question.

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