Oh dear, I seem to have kicked open a bit of a can of worms here...
@Direwolf: I apologise if I have caused offence and I certainly didn't intend to insult you or accuse you of cheating. Like I said, don't take it personally! That said, I am still extremely sceptical.
I was only including physical dice rolls in my estimation, not computer simulations. Even assuming as many as 10 million hardcore gamers that have made 100,000 d6 rolls each, that's "only" one trillion dice rolls, relative to the slighly more than a 100 trillion that are needed, statistically, to give 18 6s in a row. I imagine that several billion people in the developing world very rarely roll dice, and that the vast majority of people in the western world only do so occasionally (maybe upto a thousand times) in their life. Anyway, it was only an attempt to illustrate the extreme improbability of the outcome.
What was your reaction when you rolled the 18 consecutive 6s? Did you not stop to consider whether the die was sound? If you kept on rolling 6s, at what point would you begin to question the randomness of the outcome? Can you be absolutely sure that no-one you have ever gamed with might have used a loaded or crooked dice?
@Fruny: I believe you and yes, that particular outcome has an extremely low probability, as does any random sequence of 19 d6s that might turn up, and which could not have been predicted in advance. One should not mistake probability for luck - in this context a 6 is the best outcome for each roll.
@ladyphoenix: Even if a d6 is rolled many thousands of times, the probability of getting 18 6s in a row is still vanishingly small.
I find this an interesting phenomenon... Of course, extremely unlikely and strange sets of rolls do sometimes occur, and it's plausible that a gamer with years of experience may have witnessed one-in-a-million-type events. Equally, it's plausible for all kinds of bias to affect these extraordinary rolls, from the slightly dodgy rolling action, overly rosy or selective recollection of events, and fudging, to outright cheating along the lines of loaded dice or secret rerolling. As I say, I've seen one player use a crooked d10. I've also seen another roll dice without any announcement - if it was good he would announce it as "the roll"; otherwise, he was just idly exercising his hand. Under such circumstances, lucky becomes more likely. For every order of magnitude in a probability above 1:1,000,000 my scepticism grows in proportion. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.[/i]
Your estimates are far too low. You over estimate the number of people in the "developing world". Several billion? We have under seven billion on the whole planet. And the "developing world" is not as primative as you may think. And non-gamers roll regular d6's more than just a few thousand times in their life. More like a few million! Monopoly, Risk, Axisi and Allies, every board game everywhere. D6. Oh, don't forget shooting craps! I know some local hustlers who roll dice a thousand times a week!! And with these guys, well, cheating or accusations thereof usually end up with blood being shed. (this is my real life, not a fantasy game ).
A hard core gamer has probably made billions of dice rolls all by his lonesome; d6, d10, d20, and more. Heck, sometimes I throw dice just for fun! I was trying to see how many 1's I could roll in a row last night. Three is as high as I got. Ans as Lady P said; every single roll is an individual and separate event.
I stand by my statement - there are several billion people in the developing world ("several" meaning more than two but not very many).
The estimate of worldwide total of dice rolls is a bit of a tangent, but it was only a crude guess for the purposes of illustration. I admit it may not account for craps players and the like. Maybe every other Chinese is a fanatical dice player - I don't know...
However, you vastly overestimate lifetime dice rolls! Let's suppose you make one billion dice rolls in your lifetime, and that (being generous) you live 100 years. That's 10 million rolls per year, or 27,000 per day, or 1,100 per hour, or 19 per minute...
I used to play White Wolf Games, and one of the most annoying aspects of WW is rolling very many d10's all at once.
And do note that the ten-sided-die is of Japaneese origin. Theu have been rolling them for hundred of years before RPG's.
And Craps shooters roll a lot of dice. Not just on stoops and street corners as in my neighboorhood. Vegas is tossing out used d6's all the time because they wear out quickly. In fact, I would hazzard to guess that craps players vastly outnumber RPG'ers by at least two-to-one. So by failing to take them into account, you make the conclusions of your statistical analysis highly questionable.
I once wone two hundred bucks shooting craps at a party, but I lost 150 of it within the first few minutes after that. I quit while I was still ahead
Still, I saw a roll in the 500's once. And another around 300. Statistically, very complicated and yet there they were None of us play with perfect casino dice 99.9% of the time. I certainly don't, even if I have 2 laser cut dice that I use for some games (10 USD a piece they costed me, the buggers...). I certainly have no D20 that is perfectly cut. Statistics might be biassed due to us not using perfect dice, but I fail to see why you can question the validity of the rolls made by other gaming group. It is quite flippant, really.
So far I have not seen any of the people that started their threads telling us how their weird stuff happened with an amazing roll occurred question the validity of the roll. it was posted as a fact. In their group it is certainly a fact. And if they were lying (they could, but I really doubt it) so what? That does not invalidate the true content of their question.
So, why the hell are we discussing this instead of what the original poster asked about?
Heh. In my previous campaign, first ever use of magic was The First Casting Of The Spring Covenant's Aegis. Which double botched, with twilight episode and all.
The player followed it up by botching one roll every night for a while. Made that magus' reputation.
I have a suggestion for a nickname for that magi: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_no_Ts ... characters Louise is a terrible mage who is often scorned by her fellow classmates because every spell she casts fails, so she is nicknamed "Louise the Zero" after her zero success rate and zero attributes.
Because someone has a problem of understanding statistics.
I wish the "probability sketch" by Tage Danielsson was available in English, its wonderfully perfect for this occasion. Establishing for example without any doubt that some things that had happened didnt really happen because they they were so improbably unlikely to happen that they couldnt have happened and therefore they didnt(using the Harrisburg accident as one basis, as its from the time of the nuclear energy debate)...
And about how the odds for something happening are very different "before and after"...
Or something like that.
Well hereĂ´s the original at least: youtube.com/watch?v=FjuhW-4tyEI
Well thank you. But realise that once you start saying, that cant be true, youĂ´re saying that a person is either cheating, a liar or both. Do that in reality, and as Marko noted youĂ´re in BIG risk of getting seriously hurt.
But both are random number generation occurences. There isnt really any difference, except possibly that dice throws are more random than the result from a computer RND generator.
Just 10 million? Remember i figured that just from playing ONE single game with my dad alot, i almost reached 100000 die throws? Hardcore gamers you can probably count physical die rolls many times higher than that, and instead change maybe 1-2 billion people to having thrown 100K dice in their days, meaning i just got you your 100 trillions needed, without even breaking a sweat.
Except of course for the little fact, that i only need 18 dierolls, to get 18 6s in a row. Not 100 trillion or whatever.
Thats the part youĂ´re missing.
And you imagine that completely and utterly wrong.
Thats an outright complete bullshit assumption. You ever been in the "developing world"? Dice games are the cheapest and easiest to make, and the history of dice goes back several tens of thousands of years, literally.
You can probably assume with ease that at least 1/10 persons in the "developing world" plays a dice game on a regular basis, meaning tens or hundreds of thousands of rolls for another several hundred million people.
Oops, there youĂ´re trillions of throws are reached again...
Whewe, thats a waaaay too low assumption! How many people have NOT played diebased games when weĂ´re kids?
The "vast majority" most likely gets at an extreme minimum of thousands each.
Now, you see THIS is where you fail totally in your grasp about probability and statistics.
As said above in the thread, NO SINGLE ROLL IS CONNECTED TO THE PREVIOUS!!!
And odds also means that you actually GET even the least likely rolls, it just doesnt happen very often.
An odds of 5 to 1 against is ALSO an odds of 5 to 1 FOR.
-Wooohooo i run circles around my brother and his gf?
Something like that.
I knew it wasnt UNsound. Because as i said, the REST of the throws was quite unremarkable. And just as im capable of doing "crooked" dierolls, i know what bad dice looks and feels like. If i went in to a casino that didnt cheat i could probably keep winning fairly well until i got thrown out myself, if i really tried.
Why ever should i? I know i threw the die in a way that should make it impossible for me to predict or change the outcome, one a surface bad for "placing" the dice, with a die that we had already used for several hours that day and earlier during which time there was never any more remarkable throw than a few double or a rare triple 6 which goes perfectly along with the odds... Why ever should i.
Oh i know a few times bad dice have been used, and if someone used them on purpose i played along saintly and gave them hell in return. Or simply switched the dice openly or covertly to regular ones.
Now youĂ´re lacking for statistics and probability is showing off again...
You accept that the chance for any random sequence of dice is as likely as the next, but you cant accept that ONE of those random sequences HAS TO BE just 6s, or just 1s or a string of 1,2,3,4,5,6 repeated over and over etc etc etc...
That 6s in my case was the best possible result is totally irrelevant, because the only reason it was so notable was because it allowed med to reroll, making it VISIBLE.
In big battles in Axis and Allies, i have many times rolled more than 3/4 of the dice in a throw as 1s, even with as many as 15+ dice, but thats nothing odd at all, because far more times i have rolled something ELSE.
Which seems to be the part you have a serious problem understanding. You have to look at all the rolls, not just the good ones.
Plausible? No, its extremely likely, its actually stranger NOT to have seen an extremely lucky OR unlucky roll at least a few times.
Silly boy...
Why cant you get it into your head, the FACT that there is no NEED for ANY bias what so ever!
The extremely unlikely happens every damn day! Its just that the likely happens a damn lot more often, you JUST DONT NOTICE.
Thats just stupid. I suggest you take a math course that includes probability and statistics.
Vasili, I'm glad that you and your players found a mutually satisfying way to resolve the situation. Please do keep us posted on the impact on your game. And congratulations for spawning such a thread with your very first post.
I can foresee much more arguing about dice and probability here.
I will try to keep this brief, since much of this discussion is tangential...
Firstly, I will happily concede that my estimate of the total number of dice rolls worldwide may have been off by an order of magnitude or two. In any case, that was only a simple example to try and illustrate just quite how astronomically freakish 18 consecutive 6s are.
If you don't like that example, then I'll give you another: Suppose you have a bag of 18 d6s, and you keep rolling them all in the hope of getting 18 6s. You do this non-stop for eight hours a day, every day of the year, re-rolling the whole bunch of dice every 5 seconds. You could do this for FORTY-EIGHT MILLION YEARS - nearly a million lifetimes - and, statistically, you would expect to get all-sixes ONCE. (Of course, you might get extremely lucky and hit it on your first attempt, or your first ten thousand attempts.)
So, if you really did roll the 18 consecutive sixes, please be aware of just how amazing this feat really is! This is Guinness World Record territory here...
I don't know why people keep bringing up the gambler's fallacy. I am sure that everyone here knows that this is not the case.
OK, let's look at this example. I assume you are talking about d6s. Let's say the number of dice is 15, and more than 3/4 of them (i.e. 12 or more) turn up 1. The probability of this happening is 0.000000127, or roughly eight million to one. Let's say you've made these kinds of rolls in Axis and Allies 10,000 times (surely an overestimation). The odds of this happening to you once in that time are thus about eight hundred to one. I'll buy that it could have happened to you once, as one of the unluckiest big rolls ever in the history of that game. But if you are saying that this has happened to you "many" times, then you are asserting something that (assuming truly random dice and no funny business) simply cannot be - it's the same as saying that you have won the lottery jackpot many times. Without wishing to be rude, are sure you are not exaggerating your claim?
EDIT: did you mean "3 or 4" or "three quarters"? If the former, then please ignore my paragraph above.
This is true, of course. If you have 10,000 attempts at something with odds of 100 trillion to one, then your odds of seeing it once amidst all the failed or unremarkable rolls are "only" 10 billion to one.
True again, but you have to quantify HOW lucky or unlucky. If you play games involving dice for long enough, you will sooner or later see something remarkable with odds of hundred of thousands to one. Billion or trillion to one shots, however, you will generally not see, no matter how long you play. Some things are just so astronomically unlikely that, practically speaking, they never happen.
I assure you I am very well-versed in maths and statistics. If you doubt me, then feel free to repeat these claims to a professional statistician and see what he or she says.
I must admit I feel somewhat conflicted here... On the one hand I want to believe your claims, and the nine consecutive ones reported in the OP, and you seem to be an honest and reasonable person. On the other hand, numbers and probabilities do not lie, which causes the sceptic in me to seek an alternative explanation. As I say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
In a vain effort to keep this more squarely on topic, in response to the original poster's problem, I would first seriously question the legitimacy of the roll before proceeding further. That is not to say that I am some kind of killjoy or an overly suspicious SG. It's just that a roll like this (which, BTW, I have never seen in nearly two decades of gaming) crosses the threshold of mere freakery into the territory of the absurd.
No need to use capitals when your statement is utterly absolutely wrong.
No single roll is connected to the previus, of course not, there is no link between the result of one dice roll and the next, if your point of view in the experiment is to throw a dice everytime, you have a 1/6 og getting a one everytime, but when you[color=red] combine them, you have to use something that is called [color=red]combinatorial probability, basically the chance of you getting 18 specific results one after the other, be it 18'6, or 1,2,4,1 ,5,1,4,1, 5,6,4,5, 2,4,1,1, 5,4 is =(1/6)^18
3)And odds also means that you actually GET even the least likely rolls, it just doesnt happen very often.
Absolutely, you could also sit enough monkeys in front of a keyboard and one of them eventually would type a perfect copy of one of shakespeare's books, just by sheer luck, imagine that!!!! but that doesn't mean that it has happened, or that is ever going to, but the possibility of it happening is there.
Maybe a guy will be born, that will roll only 6's in his lifetime (a person that actually rolls lots of dice, not one that rolls one in his lifetime), it is possible, yes, indeed it is, just so very very unlickely.
I'm not even boder with this one, but perhaps, and just perhaps, it's you who should take one, math 101 perhaps?
and please avoid caps, it hurts the eyes, and it gives the impression you are shouting at the other guy, even if you are right, when you aren't, well, no comments.
I would write a thing over the them of probability... hoping that this would be the last of this post.
If I roll 10 times a d10 dice I have the same probalility of obtain:
2 6 8 7 4 5 5 6 9 0
or
4 4 6 6 8 8 2 2 0 0
or
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 9
So, matemathically speaking, each time I roll a dice 10 times, the number's series I obtain is unique, but I have the same probability to obtain any one of the "X" existing combinations. The real great unprobably thing would happen if I roll the same combination 2 or more times.
I would say to all who don't believe in the dice roll of this post that they are talking from a gaming point of wiew, where a 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 9 means something, but, as I said, if the same player would in his entire life roll the same series, than probability and statistics would be useful.
In the hope that this thread back to the initial topics, I would newly thanks all for the help and attention given to me.
How very "Berklist" -like the Forums have become
I wholeheartedly approve. Through conflict there is growth!
So, if a million people are throwing dice, then at least one of them should get this in their lifetime? 48 years is a short life, but I suppose all that dice throwing is bad for the health
How about a Billion people throwing dice? Or three billion? Six? Now streatch back many multiple lifetimes; back to ancient China or india or Greece or wherever dice were invented (prolly by cavemen rolling bones). How many dice rolls is that? And not everyone scored their 18 6's for that perfect D&D character , so a few people are due to get that roll two or three times in order to correct the curve.
Dice are actually quite popular in the "developing world". They all have cell phones to (no telephone cables). And I am still shaking my head over the fact that you neglected to figure in craps into your estimates, which I am sure is the most popular use for dice world wide.
That reminds me of the late '70's, when one school chum would throw his dice at me when he got frustrated. I think the last time it happened he failed his Save vs. Petrification roll and bounced the malcontent d20 off my glasses. Funny, in retrospect.
So if a million people are throwing dice, I'm GMing Amber.
(back to our regularly scheduled discussion . . . )
Funny. Much more enlightening than the silly and pointless discussion that we are seeing in this thread 8) My most ridiculous death must have been a goat throwing me out of a cliff path after the scene where I killed a level 24 orc boss (I was level 6) in Rolemaster. The goat was level 1 and he killed the whole party except the mage, that ran away, botched and fell by himself down the cliff.
No petrification for me, even if I have seen krakens holding their breath and running after us through a forest... before running back to the water.
I have also botched a driving roll so bad, causing the car to explode while parking it in a parking lot. My friends do not want to ride with me in a car since then
Sometimes one feel lucky those things only happen in gaming sessions (the riding is in the real world, though)