For some there are supposed to be a bunch of scripts. If there aren't others available, study Cult Lore. Alter the scripts.
Chris
"assuming Mysteries are found treasures from the past, not a easily modified game mechanic." Mysteries are wonderful. Allowing their flaws to be changed on a whim is a really bad idea, in my view. Having to make those sorts of choices makes, in my mind, a character more then a collection of stats.
Assuming we use an interpretation to fix the contradictions revolving around the confraternity Minor Inner Mysteries to leave us with the interpretation it seems we all use, this statement should be fine. So even if you don't modify the script again, it's already been modified or different versions were already made from experimentation.
Again with that fix to avoid contradiction, that you are supposed to get increased Hubris from your first Initiation combined with being able to do Initiations in any order would seem to indicate multiple scripts, too.
Chris
I agree with Chris on this one. For Verditus, in particular, its assumed that there are a whole lot of different Initiation Scripts. There ought to be, seeing as there's no "set" path the way there is for Criamon, for example. Different Scripts allow a player to properly take advantage of the post-Ordeal bonus. I mean, some of the Scripts don't give even close to enough to get the virtue.
I think those in the well-established cults should be given some leeway in choosing their flaws, and modifying their scripts. After all, this game's about facilitating the imagination, not about how well you can adhere to strict rules.
I agree with Saxonious that Hubris the true bedrock flaw of Verditus, and a truly horrific one at that, and an OK pretense for making Craft Magic, the magic of humble-caring for others.
Well, I think the rules are there to make (out of game) new cults. I think the ability to get new virtues is wonderful. You should have to crawl through the mud to get them. Altering scripts (in game), to me, takes away the Mystery and makes it too much "pick a convenient path". We have other games out there that do that. You can use Hero to play Ars Magica. It would be a very different game. I think most of us play because of the level of detail, the feeling that we are "In a world", as opposed to other games, where we roll to see how long the corridor is. Especially when you think of how few mages are really in a Mystery Cult. Verditius, the house, has seventy nine members. They are still feeling stung over the Traitor and they are pretty social. I don't think they are going to , at this time, sit back and let someone get access to their deepest secrets and most sacred books so that someone can make a more convenient path for themselves. Now, your game might be different. But I find myself most creative when working within the box. When there are no boundaries, I'm not challenged. Atlas has given us a fine box, and I think the House is quite balanced within that box. Rewrite things because you are feeling creative is allowed, but balance does go out the window.
Yeahhhh, except where the HoH:MC book writes out that "Exact scripts are left to the troupe and the storyguide to develop..." (118).
If you read The Mysteries you'll find that many cults have aternative scripts, especially for those who already have a given Virtue or Flaw. If someone is already Adverse to Risk, does that make Reforging unattainable?
I love the detail too, but what's in the book is only the begining. Players should collaborate in building up the universe over time, and the PCs should be interesting and have story and personality-driven development.
It makes just as much sense for Reforging to impart either other types of psychological damage (Reckless, Obsession: caution with objects/orderliness etc.) or even a minor hermetic flaw (Incompatible PeTe, for example).
But a character developed as a Hermetic Mad Researcher shouldn't be barred from Reforging, especially since its so integral to building to over-buffed super-devices such a character would loooove.
Yes. "In canon", having adverse to risk should deny you Reforging. Actual pain, as opposed to "well, I'm not going to experiment in the lab anyway. Free flaw!". And the Hermetic Mad Researcher should be denied Reforging. He can use Elder Runes to make overpowered items, but his lab will be filled with broken items for others to repair. And it gives us a reason, in canon, why House Verditius, the stereotypical lab rats, haven't given the Order dozens of breakthroughs. Most of the House got Reforging (It is soo useful), making the player a pearl of great price, because he chose a different way. Lots of stories are lost when everyone can do everything. Yes, the rules are there if you need then, I'm just saying, don't poke them unless you NEED to. It's your game, you'll know when that is.
Please, when we say "in canon," could we actually give the canon answer? Yours is not the canon answer. There is an example Script with that flaw. But the book also says there are "other Initiations for each Inner Mystery." Reforging is an Inner Mystery. Since it says "each" there is in canon at least one other Initiation for Reforging and perhaps more, and there's nothing at all saying all the other Reforging Initiations give the same Minor Flaw.
Chris
I gave the "canon" answer. Aversion to Risk is the flaw given for the only script provided. There are other possible scripts, which is why I say should, not does. Much like "canon" history follows real history, but possibly changed by the players. I have clearly said that you can have other scripts. The game gives those rules. But Mysteries should be mysterious. Your character has not read the section on House Verditius. For him, finding a Mystery script should be a pearl of great price, not a trip to the Mall. "I have learned at a terrible price how to reforge magic items!" NOT, "I have a high enough cult lore to pick up a virtue. I don't like the flaw I would get, so I'm going to write a new one. What flaw can I live with? Meh, we're not doing anything with the Infernal this campaign, I'll pick up offensive to Infernal.". I really don't see a lot of scripts for something that gets learned 8 to ten times a generation. There aren't a lot of Verditius (79 or 80 in canon?) and they don't all learn the inner mysteries and not all who do learn all of them. It may be different in your world.
This issue is that the book isn't effectively saying "there are other possible scripts," it's saying "there are other scripts (at least one)." Dropping that "possible" makes an immense difference. That means in canon Aversion to Risk should not prevent gaining that Mystery.
Chris
Depends on the Game. There's lots of stuff in Ancient Magic that is possible "in canon" but will never be found in most games. Lots of stuff in The Mysteries that is possible "in canon" but will never be found in most games. Ars Magica is very up front about the possibility of "dead ends", research that doesn't pan out. Saying that there are other scripts is wildly different then saying there are other scripts you can find and use......
Then what is your in-canon answer to this? What exactly would you do for a Verditius magus in canon who wants to Initiate Reforging before any other Inner Mysteries?
Chris
Well, he learns Reforging and picks up Aversion to Risk. There's no particular order you have to learn them in. There's no requirement you learn any of them at all. Seems pretty clean. Now, if he already has Aversion to Risk, well they are many things you can do, plenty of neat stories to tell. He might never be able to learn it, and have to make friends with someone in the House and work out a quid pro quo. He might have to go on a quest, visiting the older members of the House, trying to find an old, obsolete script which fell out of favor because the flaw was so nasty. He might have to become a Paragon of the House, with such a high Reputation in House, and such a high cult lore, that he's allowed access to the original notes for the script and allowed to write a new one if he can figure it out. Heck, he could get examples of Reforged items and figure it out like it was an Ancient Magic he was trying to rediscover, picking up Dark Secret if he's successful.....
That's it, huh? Yes, yes, pretty clean... and also contradictory to the rules I mentioned above when we started talking about Reforging. Care to try again?
Chris
No, I think I have it right. I don't see the ambiguity that you do, sorry. I played a Verditius in a troupe style game, with multiple people reading that chapter because I was going after some of these mysteries, and no one had the problem you seem to.
I agree with Saxonius to the point that any sacrifice must be directly meaningful for a Verditius. Simply taking "Offensive to the Infernal" when your saga is very infernal light is a cop-out. If you're going to ditch "Adverse to Risk" it should be replaced with something equally difficult, or at least "sympathetic" to the spirit of the Mystery, such as taking Slow Caster, reflecting the more careful and decisive attitude the magus has towards magic.
Keep in mind that despite the small numbers of Verditus magi and their low number of contributions to straight-up hermetic breakthroughs, the sense I got was that this is because of the profoundly inward-looking nature of the House. They put their efforts into developing new mystery powers and new initiation traditions for them.
Confraternities have unique initiations, and as few as four members each. Who knows how few magi have taken the initiation for Puissant Imaginem for Irene the Yonger's Confraternity?
Also, the fact that the chapter outlines some "common" ordeals, like "Hobbling," that feature in precisely zero of the "Sample Scripts" given. The fact that they're called "samples" is something else I can't ignore. The rules encourage improvisation, at one point, when they note how many Verditius magi will "pump" Initiation Scripts by creating and sacrificing several magical items to each the Ease Factor.
I think that the thing to take away from all this is that Saxonious and Callen are both right:
1.) The Sample Scripts are precisely that, samples. They're there to be an aid to and guide for an imaginative Story guide and troupe, not a cage.
2.) The flexibility of the rules was not set up to be an easy loophole for those who want the benefits of a Mystery without making the requisite sacrifice. Those who want to change the scripts through imaginative story telling (an initiation script used in their particular lineage, for example), should be posed with additional challenges, such as winning over a Mystagogue who knows it (story challenge) or facing a higher script modifier (assuming the Mystagogue will give a +4, rather than a +7 bonus from Lore and Presence, for example) etc.
For example, a character who wants Enchanted Casting Tools without the Limited Resistence: Vim, because the troupe faces so many g-d creatures of might in their saga, might be allowed to instead take Difficult Spontaneous and Bound Casting Tools instead, because the Mystagogue was less charismatic. Or, if they took something like Limited Ignem Resistance, the SG could cook up a nasty fairie pyromaniac to come after the troupe.
Does that make sense?
So, you house-rule away the whole Hubris thing? That's fine. You're welcome to do so. But please don't say that's canon.
Chris
Sure, it makes plenty of sense. Different people focus on different things. Callen has focused on the Letter of the Law, as it were, for Confraternities, to the point they seem almost a flaw. I look at the fact they are a virtue and so am much more relaxed about how they work. You look at the rules about "common ordeals" and see a House very open about modifying their mysteries. I look at the text about The Traitor, and how the House treats those who learn Automatons, the Mystery the "wrong way" and see a House acting a bit (maybe a lot) paranoid and get the theme of a House no longer open to that sort of change. I think we all agree that Sacrifice is important. I am a little twitchy about Hubris. It's harsh, and can't be avoided. So perhaps I am kinder then I should be about the "back half", as it were. Certainly I'm not house ruling it away. We used Hubris, really, it was used on me, because I was the only Verditius, and everyone certainly kept an eye out for anything that would increase it.....
I think we all agree there. It's not a sacrifice if you don't give something up.
Yup. Even more evidence, and some of it even specifically for alteration.
I haven't been trying to suggest there shouldn't be a sacrifice. I think we're all on the same page there. I've just been saying that, in canon, there are multiple ways to obtain the House's Inner Mysteries. Not only is there no statement of a restriction to a single script for any given Inner Mystery (leaving out the unique confraternity ones here), there are statements that there are multiple methods for every Inner Mystery.
Chris
I asked you for "exactly" what would happen on a first Inner Mystery Initiation. I wanted to understand how you dealt with the various Initiation scripts and Hubris on the first Inner Mystery Initiation, an issue I had mentioned above. You said nothing about Hubris. The book makes a specific statement about Hubris when you learn your first Inner Mystery. You confirmed that you had it right without any Hubris stuff and that no one had a problem with it. Now those who didn't have a problem with leaving it out kept an eye out for anything that would increase it? And they would still be OK with this? I'm surprised so many missed that part of the chapter if they were keeping an eye out for anything that would increase Hubris. How did they miss the one that gives it to you in the first place? Or did you state things incorrectly?
Yes, I agree that Hubris can be harsh. It can tend to make unique personalities within the House difficult because it can eventually become overwhelming. That seems to detract from flavor. We tend to house-rule it in some way, generally playing with it but lessening its importance. But I am aware of when I'm house-ruling it.
Chris