No, I just didn't think it was an issue for what we were discussing. Yep, first inner Mystery, you get Hubris, in addition to whatever else the script demands. Weird but clear to us, it's a "floating flaw" that doesn't really follow the script rules. It's one of the reasons I try to "stay vanilla" when it comes to scripts, for they feel more Art then Science to me, like the canon Wizards Tower, which has seen so much ink spilled on this forum. "If you don't know why is fence is there, leave it up".
I'm pretty sure I brought it up in regard to this specific situation, though I wasn't as clear as I prefer. It's not "Increased Hubris" but "Hubris." My "increased Hubris" above is a little confusing.
Hmmm... I really thought your first Initation had an Ordeal attached to it giving you the Minor Flaw Hubris. I don't understand why that doesn't follow the script rules. I'm pretty sure it's intended to arise through an Ordeal, both because of the following quotes and because gaining a Minor Flaw through Initiation is considered an Ordeal.
Chris
Yes, first inner mystery gives you Hubris. But it doesn't add to the number for the initiation. It's a "zero" point, floating Ordeal. It doesn't follow the rules for Mysteries, but the intent is clear, I think. To learn any of the Inner Mysteries gives you an inescapable, extra House flaw, Hubris. Just as much a part of the House as Casting Tools. I don't believe that a script without this "hidden ordeal" is allowable in canon. Just seems clear to me, even though you are correct that it isn't following "the Rules". One of those more Art then Science moments the game has.....
Agreed. There is no Verditius without Hubris, the very thought is impossible. One of the points of the four Mystery Cults is that they all warp the personality of the magi in them. The very nature of the magic involved, of necessity, warps the magus in this way.
For Verditius, Hubris is the result of Magi investing so much of their souls into their work, where the Magi exalt in the beauty and power they have wrought. As the Founder says in that quote at the begining of the Chapter, this is what seperates Verditus enchantment from that of other magi: Other magi see the devices as seperate from themselves. For per Verditus, the objects are projections of themselves into the world.
There are a few ways to "deal" with Hubris.
1.) Hubris builds around the personality flaws of the magus. A Magus who is "Proud" will simply be a dick. One who is ambitious will be an entitled prat. One who is Pious, however, will become increasingly obsessed with his own piety. One who is dutybound will be consumed by that duty, seeing it as more important than other concerns. One who is humble may become holier-than-thou-art, with ostentatious displays of humility. A good combination might be humble and compassionate, which will grant an obsession for the magi to help others to protect the weak, considering that "he has been specially born for this task." A PC can be Verditus without being a total dick and hopeless fool. His personality flaws will simply be more extreme, whatever they are.
2.) A troupe might consider allowing a Verditus to eradicate his Hubris.... as a result of a major quest which forms a focus of the story. The Verditus would need to explore the child-hood haunts and major locales of the Founder and his history as well as those of the Cult of Vulcan and the tradition of Wayland and the mage-smiths, requiring several major adventures, become an expert in lore, and conduct major research into "lifting the Curse of his House."
Hubris might be replaced by a gentler sympathy, similar to a charm, where enchanted items gain advantageous or deleterous circumstances depending on the personality of the maker (a compassionate magus would make items that are weaker when used to harm, or used by a cruel individual, for example.) This might require stealing/learning the secrets of Merinita Story Magic, for example, or another story feat of that magnitude.
3.) An SG might allow a character to develop a script which allows him to lower his hubris. If that Script focused mainly on sacrifices and quests, rather than Ordeals, it might be something that could be done repeatedly.
For example: Serve as a mundane craftsman helping the poor (teaching mundane apprentices, for example) for three seasons; sacrifice one's casting tools and a major amount of wealth at a ritual where you eat vis (further sacrifice) and gain a warping point, after which you must create and give away a major item to someone for no fee. If there were a Mystagogue involved, this might not be too onerous a thing, though the lost time etc. is a major sacrifice.
However, anything that controls or eliminates Hubris should be a major story event or player sacrifice. Its a big part of being a Verditus, and stops them from being super-dull vis-monkeys for the whole saga.
The fuzzy part for me is, does the mage know he has Hubris? I mean, it's treated like a personality trait, and I don't personally know my personality traits. It's a lot easier to deal with if he knows. There's a character goal for you, set up a new confraternity, Hubris Anonymous.....
If he does know, then the House knows too, right? How will they respond to your trying to get rid of one of your "house" flaws? The canon record is not good. We can look at how house members who learn Automaton the easy way are treated.
One other way to deal with Hubris, I think, is the fact that House Criamon's flaw seems to be in the other direction, toward selflessness. Enigmatic Wisdom can be forced on you "in canon" if you go through Twilight. Once you have that "skill", the House seems (in canon) to be very open about allowing you to learn their Mysteries. Perhaps you could do the Ying/Yang thing and balance the two. Very tricky, because while House Criamon seems to be ok with that, I think House Verditius (still licking their wounds over the Traitor) would freak!
Unless you avoid the inner mysteries, which is what the head of the house did, as detailed in The Sundered Eagle.
I don't know about the Sundered Eagle, but to avoid getting Hubris you'd need to avoid a lot more than the inner mysteries.
Hubris increases when you sell anything magical you make, when you wage or win a vendetta or if you win a Contest.
So, if you avoid the Inner Mysteries.... and never make or do anything.... then, yep, you can keep Hubris at one.
First off, there's nothing that says that the Traitor taught Automoton without an initiation... I think the outsiders he taught still needed to be initiated.
Hubris is universal enough that Verditius magi know all about it, IMS, at least. However, most see it as a good thing. It makes them more powerful magi (adding to their Lab Total for high-end projects) and, in their mind, they're entitled to their pride. They likely would not call it Hubris, but something else, like "Depth" or "Majesty", (the second, IMS). Hubris is simply the best description for it OC.
This is not correct. Hubris is a Minor Flaw that is treated as a personality trait. It's not just a personality trait. It only rises in those situations if you have a score that can rise, meaning at some point you have acquired the Flaw Hubris.
I would agree with this. Plus we have Sundered Eagle pretty much confirming awareness of Hubris. I think the key to it is really Vulcano's last sentence. If it's viewed as "Depth" or "Majesty" then it's something most of them would not avoid. Not only that, they would want to spread it around, giving it to everyone ASAP. How would they do that? Via an Ordeal. There are Initiations for every Inner Mystery that include an Ordeal for the Flaw Hubris. Those are the first ones used to make sure the newly Initiated Verditius magi have access to this other secret. Afterward you use different Ordeals.
Chris
Ah, but all the things you talk about only apply once you have the "Personality" Trait, Hubris. I think that's the reason it's a Trait, not a skill. So, avoiding the actual reason for being a member of the House will save you from Hubris, no matter how many magic items you sell.
As to Automatons, check Mystery Cults. It is now a Hermetic skill, which any mage can learn without an ordeal. The House is not happy with that, and any Verditius who goes that route will have a hard time of it in canon, which is clearly stated in their chapter.
Yes, I can see that. It's fuzzy, and there a good arguements on both sides. Canon really doesn't say, so this issue is something for the StoryTeller and player to work out before the campaign starts. It's not like Hubris is a surprise or avoidable (except by cutting off your nose to spite your face!).
More than the reason, you have to avoid the Cult, that is, the House and all its mysteries, alltogether. Hubris is a result of the initiation process. However, unlike some initiation scripts where the personality flaw is an accident of the initiation, (i.e. Hatred: Seekers for Himnis Curses), Hubris is an integral part of the mystery powers of Verditius.
Its not something that magi get naturally as part of their training; its not a cultural problem. Its the mystical reshaping of a personality mimicing the mystical reshaping of the gift through the mystery.
All Verditius magi, every, single, solitary last one of them develops a personality trait: Hubris when they are initiated into the Outer Mystery. This cannot, ever, be avoided. Any attempt to jimmy one's way out by saying "Oh, but my magus had a really nice family, and is really quite sweet" only modifies the nature of that magus's Hubris. It does not destroy it.
As Hubris is the result of the special relationship a Verditius has to his/her artistry and items, its increase is directly tied to the glorification of these items and this artistry. If the quality of work is imugned, a Verditus will defend it with a Vendetta, resulting in increased Hubris. When he sells his stuff for huge fees, his increased is increased. When he gains praise for winning the Contest, his Hubris increases.
You cannot ditch Hubris without ditching the special bond between Verditius and Craft, that is, ditching all Mystery powers altogether.
This is completely incorrect. Every one of them develops that trait upon being Initiated into their first Inner Mystery.
This is a misunderstanding resulting from the above misunderstanding. You don't yet acquire Hubris when you Initiate the Outer Mystery, but you do gain a bond between your magic and your Craft Abilities. Thus Hubris is not required for such a bond. You do acquire Hubris if you go further (the Inner Mysteries) with this bond.
Chris
P118 of HoH: MC "Regardless of the particular Minor Inner Mystery a magus learns, his first Initiation into an Inner Mystery is always accompanied by an Ordeal that gives him the Minor Flaw Hubris. Every Verditius magus who seeks knowledge of the Inner Mysteries is plagued by this psychological shortcoming."
So, I think that makes it clear that Hubris only comes if you initiate an Inner House Mystery. If you avoid all of them, you don't get the Hubris flaw. Perhaps this was because Hubris was not mentioned in the main rulebook, and as such, Atlas didn't want to spring this on people and say "Hey, you were playing your 5th edition Verditius wrong." For whatever reason they chose this to be true, this is what it looks like in the RAW. The other activities you mention that increase a Hubris score: often in Ars Magic you have to have a baseline score in order to have it increased. For instance, if someone doesn't have the Second Sight virtue, they can't gain it simply by reading a Second Sight Summae, they have to either have the virtue or have the Gift and overcome whatever penalties apply to their study total in order to raise their score to at least one in a single season.
Now, upon checking, the Verditius Primus written in The Sundered Eagle has merely avoided most of the Inner Mysteries and has a Hubris of +1, while the Humble personality trait of +3. So, I don't actually have an example of a Verditius who avoided Hubris all together. But is sure looks like something that can be worked around
Wow. Did I ever miss that one.
In my defense, the book's a little inconsistent on this one. Inner Mysteries aren't generally attainable until after gauntlet. However, winning the Apprentice's Category of the Contest grants a Hubris Point to the lucky champion.
Ditto Journeyman's category, which could be won without an Inner Mystery.
The Hubris thing has always struck me as strange, and an enormous gimp on Verditus magi. I mean, there's a lot of power in that House, but they're locked behind doors a lot as it is. Making them prickly anti-socialites hardly helps, unless you have an enormously good humoured troupe.
Well, the canon is pretty clear that the House is in fact, very social. It's not until they're at about maybe (canon is not so clear on this point) Arch mage level that Hubris causes real problems, and even there, the examples given are of a very quiet and clean "social war". Nasty, sniping feuds, not a war to the knife. Perhaps a means to cut down on access to "high level" Verditius, who make "better" NPC contacts then any other House (in my eyes), and the items they might give you. Remember, Hubris seems also to be used on tracking how bad a Verditius is about attempting to recover his items, even one's he's sold....
As to the other part, you have missed it formally, I think you got the spirit correct. Part of being in a Mystery House or cult is advancing in the Mysteries. A Verditius avoiding the Inner Mysteries should pick up a bad reputation pretty quickly. Only eighty odd members in the House, and it's a pretty social House (in canon). It would be like being nominated for the Order of the Arrow and not standing vigil. No rule against it, but it's Just Not Done.
Well, I guess it depends on how much social pressure you think the Order of Hermes has. I always saw it as mostly a "out of sight, out of mind" sort of group. I think of it like those who are teaching at a university and don't publish. If you don't publish articles, no one is going to consider you for tenure or think as highly of you as if you did, but it is not the same thing as plagiarism or other academic crimes. I figure if my Verditius magus doesn't increase his cult lore or initiate any Inner Mysteries, no one is going to even notice. He won't get a bad reputation, he just won't get any reputaion at all or be considered first for a commission of an item. If he sold items at lower than the minimum prices set by the house or if he took an apprentice and failed to initiate him into the Mystery Cult that would cause negative reputation.
I didn't write that bit. If I had I would have tuned out of the thread at about the point where you all agreed it was badly written and editted. No-one bothers to hang in a thread where people are telling them how bad their work is.
Ah, Dwightemarsh, I wasn't talking about the Order of Hermes. In Houses of Hermes : Mysteries, the chapter on Verditius talks about how social the House is "in house". The grief the members get over casting tools seems to have made them a tightknit, insular House. And in that House, creative and powerful items are the coin of respect. Verditius are hands on people, as opposed to most of the rest of the Order, which have a more academic view. So, no bad reputation with the Order at large. That will come if mages within the Order ask your peers about you......
This is very much a YMMV kind of thing, but I still figure it is more of a "Who?" sort of reaction than having the other Verditius say bad things about Zaccheaus. Given the twilight scars that a magus can accumulate or the interesting personality flaws they often take at character creation, how is not showing much interest in Verditius Cult Lore going to even be noticed?
Heck, the Primus of the House managed to keep his Hubris down to +1. It can't be that problematic.
Take a look at the chart that lists the ways that Hubris is accumulated. A primus wouldn't need to or even have the time to necessarily sell a lot of items.
In points terms, every minor Mystery gives +1, Every Major +3, every lesser sale +1, greater sale +3 and attuned item +6.
The only way to not gain Hubris is to avoid doing anything a Verditus would want to do or be good at: Traversing the mysteries or making and selling items. The Primus gets a pass because he has an alternative career as it is. He'd get by just running the house, and wouldn't need to sell to make a living. Not really viable for most Verditus, many of whom get by early in career by selling Items of Quality.
I also wonder how many story guides would allow characters to take one character flaw simply to mitigate another.
But, hey, who am I to scoff at a free lunch? From now on, any Verditus I play is taking the Humble flaw.