Insights related to the core Supernatural Abilities?

Just that question: I was going through potential story seeds, and was thinking about labwork and what a character could actually reasonably learn from going to the nearest village and kidnapping/bribing/mentally dominating the local heggie for a season or three. And honestly I'm having trouble with a few of them. Of course, it may be that the underlying game mechanic/magic is simply already incorporated into the Hermetic Arts as of 1220. Some seem to not yet be fully Integrated, though:

Animal Ken - Intelligo Animal. That's...pretty much it, which has been fully integrated. Although the Animal can understand you as well, so there's some implied Creo Mentem?

Dousing - likely one of the original sources of general Intelligo magic, as well as Sympathetic bonuses. However, Dousing is not restricted by Hermetic Range or Size - rather, it's roughly measured in Paces, rather than strict boundaries. I'm...not quite sure about this one. Maybe have a "paces" Size, (1 pace = 0, up to 1 league = +3)?

Enchanting Music - well, it's pretty much emotional control, which has already been integrated into ReMe. However, it's action is the very definition of Performance Magic. So, I'd call Performance Magic (Singing and/or Musical Instrument) to be a partially-integrated version of this Ability. Also could be considered a source of Sensory (Sound) magic.

Entrancement - Straight-up Mind control. Also covered by ReMe. However, it's activation technique is just eye contact. This is likely one of the sources of Range:Eye (along with other various "evil eye" traditions), and has been fully Integrated. Arguably, the Ability also includes Deft Mentem, as the ONLY thing you do is stare into the target's eyes. Or to make it more interesting, the additional Insight is "Deft Eye: any Eye-range spell does not require Gestures or Incantations". Hm.

Premonitions - ooh. A toughie. This seems to break the Limitation of Time, although it doesn't give specific information. The safe bet is that it's probably a source for Hermetic Divination. Beyond that... I'm not sure.

Magical Sensitivity - OK, it's a crude version of Intelligo Vim. That's...pretty much it.

Sense Holiness and Unholiness - Well, unlike the others this is gonna be Divine, so it's probably a source of Holy Magic integration. Beyond that, Intelligo magic (already got it) - arguably could be considered a minor Holy Hermetic Virtue "Can Detect Demons with Intelligo" and "Can use Intelligo magic on the Divine and not get in trouble".

Second Sight - Probably one of the sources of Intelligo Vim magic. However, it's ability to ignore Magic Resistance hasn't yet been integrated, as described in Hedge Magic.

Shapeshifter - Pretty much the definition of Muto Corpus (Animal). Already integrated, unless there's something specific to it (like no warp for shapeshifting, or something.) Although Shapeshifter doesn't have the language that Skinchanger has about being is that an implied virtue right there? (limit of essential nature?)

Skinchanger - (OK, not technically an ability) - Also the definition of Muto Corpus (Animal), although it also includes the ability to create lesser Enchanted Items. The fact that the skinchanger won't degrade mentally is probably an unintegrated minor virtue, though.

Wilderness Sense - Oh, right. This is a Supernatural Ability. Um... Size: Boundary for Intelligo effects is non-ritualized. Further, if the boundary is naturally occurring, (such as a forest, mountain, or lake), you don't need to add size modifiers. The actual size of the boundary does not matter, so long as it is continuous and naturally-occurring. Maximum size would be a mountain range, small sea, or a singular primeval forest.

HoH:MC clarifies that with Shapeshifter the shapeshifting magic lasts only an instant (even if the outcome lasts indefinitely).
Integrating Shapeshifter could allow a magus to have Muto spells (or, in a more restricted version, R:Per Muto Corpus spells) that last only an instant, but leave the Target changed and non-magical (bypassing long-term warping, Magic Resistance, etc.).

Cool - I thought I recalled seeing something like that, but I wasn't sure.


Animal ken is also an ability used by folk witches to bind familiars, so you can investigate into that as well.

Dowsing can be used for new insights in ranges (paces as you say) and also as new intellego guidelines for being drawn to something instead of just perceiving it. A "drawn to" effect can be useful to force a multiplicity of movement spells. Drawing your enemy to your spear, or drawing yourself to an AC or the top of a nearby wall, for example.

Enchanting Music can also be used for Song Duration or Sound Range. useful to affect unsensed targets.

Entrancement. What about "Mission" duration? You are under the effect of the spell until you complete what you have ordered to do.

Premonitions. What about "warped magic"? In a positive way. You auto-use Intellego to detect stuff, even ig you are not using it actively.

Interesting idea - basically the idea of inherent, passive magic, in addition to Magic Resistance. Something like the following:

Instinctive Magic (minor Hermetic Virtue): "non-fatiguing spont magic no longer requires a separate action". It would effectively as though the character had all all instances of Performance Magic, but only for non-fatiguing spont effects.

or alternately, if it was more of a "set it up and walk away", it could be the following:

"Personal Intelligo magics do not cause long-term warp" - although this could be duplicated with a Familiar bond...

It's sensory magic, both hearing and sound targets are part of Animal Ken. So it's only half integrated. You can talk to a bird that you can't see, and it still understands you.

Also it may give some insight towards allowing mentem spells to affect animal minds.

One thing alluded to in HMRE is that it's not always easy to get insights from all of these supernatural abilities. Insights for integration research require either a Teacher, a Relic, or a Text. The Hedge Witch section specifically mentions this in regards to getting insights for Sixth Sense since unlike people who just happen to have that ability Hedge Witches produce plenty of Relics and can act as Teachers. Since these magical abilities don't by default produce many valid sources the Magus will have to be creative.

Relic's are defined loosely as magical devices or items enchanted by the Hedge Tradition. Also something with an ongoing magical effect qualifies and by that sense a laboratory qualifies. So you could probably use a Dowser stick or a skinchangers fetish to get one insight. Also for some abilities that are sort of "on all the time" like Premonitions the hedgie themselves might be a relic. In fairness I might even allow you to stretch the rules further and study any hedgie using their power as a relic. But remember each relic only provides a single insight.

Text's are perhaps the easiest insight source to aquire for these abilities. I assume any Summa or Tractati on the ability itself would be a good source of insight. So as long as the Hedgie where literate, and you could always try teaching them, you could get them to write books for you. Though again each book would only be good for one insight each. Non-literate hedgies might also know of or be able to create Alternatives to Books like the Great Works or Significantos described in Covonants.

A character with the ability or virtue can't be a Teacher unless they also have a MT ability to a tradition that grant's that power. In theory if the local Hedgie doesn't have MT the magi could act as a Teacher and assist the hedgie in intergrating Hermetic Theory into their own magic. Then conceivably the hedgie could return the favor. Since they have to be literate and take lab notes to do the research to integrate Hermetic theory the entire process could be rife with insight potential.

On possible process is find someone with the ability you'd like to get insight from, teach them enough to be literate. Have them alternate between trying to create their own MT ability and writing books on their ability. While they are writing books you can use their lab notes from the Hedgies integration research to generate insights for your own research. You may or may not be able to use their "lab" for insight to.

I don't think that works, maine75man. The Hermetic mage could give insight to integrating Hermetic Theory, but not just [insert any and all Theories here]. Which would presumably also be impossible, since a Hedgie can't integrate anything without a Hedge Theory of their own.

Of course, the flip side of that is that the Hedgie could get insight by studying their own effects... But you'd need several practitioners who use the skills in different ways to get the Relic insight for your own Hedge Tradition.

Alternatively, use the Original Research rules from HoH:TL. But that isn't really practical, since it would probably take multiple lifespans of work to come to fruition.

There are plenty of things to be gained from integrating these abilities, but given that most of them don't even have full-on traditions containing themselves, it's going to be slow, painstaking work.

Not as far as I understand the Integration By Hedge Wizard Researchers rules on HMRE pg 16. Hedge wizards can use the Integration Rules to conduct research integrating aspects of other traditions into their own. However if they don't have their own (Hedge Magic) Theory then that ability is the only thing they can be researched. You couldn't get an insight into a MT ability from a tradition that didn't already have it's own version of the ability. So the only place they could get insights to create their own Hedge Theory would be from a tradition that already has one of it's own, like Hermetics.

Well and that's a different issue. Does having a lone supernatural ability qualify as a tradition? Particularly in the sense of being able to invent a MT ability. I'm not sure if it always does. But if it does then helping such a practitioner to create their own MT is an option for getting lots of insights.

Mostly CrAn. Animal is for cunning, Mentem is for intelligence.

Yep - this was the main idea: take the heggie, pay them an exorbanent amount of money (like, a couple of pounds of Silver) to learn Artes Liberales for a couple of seasons from a tutor, then have them write a book in either their Local Language, or Latin (if they know it or are willing to learn it.) The process is a bit of a long-term scenario, but it would bear fruit after a couple of years. But if they have Relics or Hedge MT already, so much the better!

I'm assuming that most of these folks have a single skill in the 5-7 range, with a small minority being the equivalent of Folk Witches. They can be found simply by "sending out the grogs to ask", or else by building an InVi "vision of Magical Power" effect for them to use.

Now, there certainly are stories to be told with that - although the character is smart enough to set up precautions against Infernal corruption and Farie infiltration (although, with the latter, it's honestly not that big a deal, as long as everyone KNOWS that it's a fairie - although they may need to create Great Works or Artifacts, rather than Texts.)

I suppose another effect for all of these is that, despite their Magical nature - none of them cause long-term Warp. Which implicitly suggests that there might be a different between Abilities like this, and Hermetic Magic. Or this might be a limitation of Hermetic Magic Theory that hasn't really been addressed all that much. While the Gift doesn't (by itself) cause Warp (if anything, it aligns the Maga to Magic, and thus prevents it), the actual activity of Hermetic Magic seems to be something you DO. Whereas Supernatural Abilities seem to be part of the Essential Nature of the individual.

So it may be that the study of ANY core supernatural ability that doesn't cause warp can gain insight into making Hermetic Magic more, for lack of a better word, "natural".

Or it may be that we're simply seeing the non-Warp-causing implementations of these skills. Hedge Witches, for example, can take their equivalent of Warping when they futz around with Animal Ken or Premonitions - but they have to do more with it than just talk to animals. So perhaps this is simply the non-stressful version of using the magical ability, just like Hermetics have their non-stress casting.

The way that I see it is that most Supernatural abilities are not on constantly, and some aren't even mystical effects on the caster/user themselves. So they don't get long-term Warping, and if the effects aren't 6th-magnitude equivalent they wouldn't cause "powerful mystical effect warping" either.

Or, in case you didn't remember this, any Supernatural Ability does the same thing as the Gift, making one immune to Warping from their ability's type of aura.

But you probably did remember that, and I'm flapping my gums for no good reason.