InTe guidelines lvl4: "See an object and its surroundings"

I was trying to make a Terram scrying spell based on this guideline, but I'm confused about whether it requires extra magnitudes for Vision.
(I had a little reddit discussion on the subject)

I can't find an example of a spell using this guideline, as the limitations of "Sense the Feet that Tread the Earth" (ArM p154) seem more appropriately explained by the InTe 4 guideline "learn one mundane property of an object" (reading the pressure and vibrations on from the ground).
The way I understand it, "See an object and its surroundings" needs +4 magnitudes for Target:Vision to be functional, or Sense the Feet would allow you to see anywhere within a mile.

I can't find a canonical example, though, and similar guidelines from other Forms seem to indicate the contrary:

InIg 10 (ArM p141): "See a fire [...] and all things it illuminates"

  • "Eyes of the Flame" doesn't require +4 Vision
    InAq 2 (ArM p122): "Get an image of water"
  • "Call of the Rushing Waters" doesn't require +3 Hearing
    InAq 3: "Get an image of water and its immediate surroundings"
  • I can't see a spell that applies this guideline, but the similarity with the lvl 2 guideline seems to indicate that it doesn't need +4 Vision
    "Enchantment of the Scrying Pool" doesn't conform to the guidelines, so it doesn't help.

What do you think?

Jules

It doesn't need a Vision Target. The guideline would work with R:Arcane Connection, D:Diameter, T:Individual, allowing you to see an object you have an AC to and its surroundings. If it's dark though, you can't see much.

So you could make a variant of Sense the Feet with this guideline and see everything within a mile, for the same lvi as just getting a sense of weight and movement?

That seemed much more powerful to me at first glance, but I guess the lighting requirement softens the difference a little bit...
That's easily circumvented with Eyes of the Cat, though

T: Vision (ArM5 p.113f) is providing a magical sense via your eyes. It is not necessary to magically see another location: compare ArM5 p.144 Summoning the Distant Image.
From where do you take "see anywhere within a mile"? The level 4 guideline from ArM5 p.153 Intellego Terram Guidelines "See an object and its surroundings" limits the surroundings by the object. The SG will determine per object, which surroundings are needed to see it.

Take for example your lost talisman-wand. Using on it a spell with this guideline you will see the claws of the bird which has stolen it and currently carries it through the air for sure. But you won't see the city of London it is carrying it over in detail.

Cheers

Eyes of the Cat modifies your eyes. You're not receiving the information through your eyes (via Vision), so why would Eyes of the Cat help at all?

I quoted a few examples of not needing T:Vision myself. I did not quote Intellego Imaginem examples because their guidelines are structured differently from the other Intellego: "use x senses at a distance" rather than "Sense/See/Learn [piece of information]".

The target in the "Sense the Feet" question is a section of ground with a radius of 1 mile.
The question is: as a SG, what distance from the object would I consider "surroundings"?

"Enchantment of the Scrying Pool" seems like the closest example to a use of the lvl3 guideline "Get an image of water and its immediate surroundings", and it allows vision of anything "within sight" of some natural body of water.
I wouldn't go that far with the lvl4 InTe guideline, but a pace around the item seems like a bare minimum, and a few more (depending on the size of the object) seems entirely reasonable.

Indeed. No MuCo, then.
If you were a cat heartbeast, a spell that allows you to see something should allow you to see it normally, with your normal as the baseline, no?
A MuMen (An) should allow you to adjust your mind's eye to be like that.

Near as I can tell, Intellego reigns the concept of perceiving information; There are two main spells I've seen from this, magical senses,and magical knowledge. Some Intellego spells perceive a fact and return it to you (Is this cow pregnant? Yes.) while others give you the ability to perceive things (I can taste magic!) If what you're looking for is a piece of information then you are going to be using the first one (where is my talisman, what made these wounds, is this hair color natural?). If what you're looking for is the ability to detect a thing (see through illusions, sense the tingle of crossing aura boundaries) then you want the latter.
Simplest example I know:
Is this apple vis? Range touch, target indivitual(one apple).
Where in this orchard are vis-apples? Range personal, target vision.

That makes total sense, but doesn't seem to fit the examples that I quoted in the OP, where you can see stuff without needing sense targets...

This works with the lvl 4 Intellego Terram Guideline "See an object and its surroundings", a sympathetic SG sorting out just what one sees at one time, T: Part and a huge +3 size modifier indeed.

Enchantment of the Scrying Pool is a

, perfectly legit but not built according to any ArM5 guideline. Is is rather a legacy spell grandfathered in from ArM4 p.201. It is not an example for use of guidelines like those from ArM5 p.153 Intellego Terram Guidelines at all.

AFAICS, there are no InTe spells replacing general InIm scrying spells. Even ArM5 p.122 "Enchantment of the Scrying Pool" has an Imaginem Requisite.
Perhaps you tell us what you really wish to achieve in general terms, and we see what could be possible?

Cheers

Sense the Feet is a canon spell with range Touch, target Part and size +3.
It's not an invention of mine, it's a canonical spell from the core book p154 with no caveat or Special calculation.
It just exploits the large base individual of earth and multiples that by 1000.

I really don't see how you could interpret it any other way than as targeting the ground in a 1 mile radius.

You are right about this.

Cheers

Thank you

Also, the scrying pool spell was only there to give a sense of the size of areas shown possible with scrying spells, to argue that a few paces is entirely reasonable when that other, Special spell gives full vision range. Feel free to give other examples that give images with inches of width like you suggested.

Would you mind addressing my argument, rather than just stating the opposite view with no explanation?

Reading the pressure and vibrations explains the effect of the spell, and its limitations.
"Seeing the object and its surrounding" doesn't.

Enchantment of the Scrying Pool has an Imaginem requisite. ArM5 p.141 Eyes of the Flame has no Imaginem requisite, but shows only what the specific fire illuminates. ArM5 p.154 Sense the Feet that Tread the Earth has no Imaginem requisite, and also shows only what moves and shakes the specific Part of the earth proper.

Spells based on "See an object and its surroundings" already imply some Imaginem component: the object perceived by it can only be seen from the outside, hence necessarily with some surroundings. Going further and using such spells to scry the target's surroundings soon has your spell fall under the second kind of requisite:

Cheers

Thank you for arguing your point.

The Imaginem requisite in the scrying pool is necessary to create the image in the pool for everyone to see, because it involves creating species that are not mentioned in the guideline. For an image that only appears in your mind's eye, this is not the case.*
The species at the Target end of the spell are taken care of by the use of the word "See" or 'Get an Image" in the guideline. Using a raw guideline with no extra frills whatsoever shouldn't require a requisite unless the guideline specifies it (do you have a counter example for this?)

The only example of a similar guideline that I can find is Eyes of the Flame, and it doesn't require a Req:Im or T:Vision.
I don't see why "see the surroundings" should be treated differently from "see what the fire illuminates".

For me, all that remains to be clarified is the radius of the "surroundings":
Here's a proposition:

Cheers

[size=85]* Side-point, this is how I analyze "Enchantment of the Scrying Pool", InAq 30:
Base 3 (Get an image of water and its immediate surroundings), Touch+1, Req:Im+1 Year+4
[Target “Ind” when it’s actually most similar to a Boundary+4 with arbitrarily high Size]: a measly +1
It is that last part that makes it not conform to the guideline.[/size]

I don't think so. First, we have

So people looking into the pool determine the place they will scry, limited by their own knowledge of it and its distance. The spell does not show to other people what the scrying people are seeing.
But this spell clearly goes beyond a Sight-only version of ArM5 p.145 Summoning the Distant Image, so the Imaginem requisite is in order by ArM5 p.114f Requisites.

What you consider extra frills your troupe might consider the main feature of the spell. A typical example is ArM5 p.131 Eyes of the Cat using the guideline "Change someone to give them a minor ability" (p.130) with an Animal requisite just for mentioning the eyes to become cat's eyes.

Light in ArM5 is Ignem too (see ArM5 p.139 Ignem Spells). So "see what the fire illuminates" is Intellego of something within the fire you target. "See an object and its surroundings" goes outside the targeted object and handles species there. Up to which case this is just cosmetical, and from which case on, by ArM5 p.114f Requisites as quoted above, it leads to Imaginem requisites of first or second kind, needs to be determined by your troupe.

T: Vision plays no role here, as no ArM5 p.114f Magical Senses are involved.
Otherwise, you should make this proposition to your troupe.

Cheers

Good point. The Imaginem Req can then be interpreted as giving sight further from the shore than whatever the baseline is.

I've come across this one indeed, and it's been bugging me.
To me, the only reason that it has an Animal Req is that it says "gain the eyes of a cat" instead of "gain night vision".
This is not a demonstration of the Limits of magic, but an unoptimized spell, of which there are many.
> A spell that generically improves your eyes for night vision instead of changing the eyes into cat's eyes would be entirely acceptable and strictly better (no Req)
It's less common in the Order, that's all.

You're right. That leaves me with no spell whatsoever to use as a baseline for the meaning of "surroundings", hence the need for my clarification.

I don't see it as a cosmetical Requisite, but as integral to the guideline. And I still have no canonical spell to arbitrate from on the term "surroundings".

What use is the Terram guideline if it always requires an Imaginem Req ?
If you're limited by your Imaginem score, you could just cast the InIm "sight at a distance" at the same range for 3 less magnitudes.
You would also get unlimited sight range from your target, rather than "surroundings" only.