For whatever reason, say you are about to be involved in Wizard's War next month, you are trying to get information about a magus from their guard turb.
What can you do to their turb guards to acquire information, in a way that doesn't violate your Hermetic Oath?
Magic line InMe is out. As is other scrying.
Getting them drunk on their off time and asking questions is probably OK.
Other truth telling (or at least tongue loosening) drugs? Perhaps opium is known.
Torture causing long term damage might not be allowed as it could be interpreted as "depriving magical power".
What about magically conjured drink/drugs, with a Month duration? Could these be safely applied to the grogs?
This is the usage of the Normandy Tribunal (TL&tL p.23f Mundane Resources), but not of many other Tribunals. Of course, proper identification of covenfolk may be requested in other places to protect them.
How many degrees of separation is 'scrying'?
If you magically send a message to your local agent commanding him to interrogate certain grogs for certain information, does that count as scrying even though all else is by mundane means?
A pouch full of stones illusioned to look like silver coins for Sun, flashed as a bribe to the right grog count as scrying?
I am hoping the definitive edition might give guidelines to this ambiguous question.
I'm pretty sure it varies by tribunal, and even by case. The legal system of the order is a political one, after all. Though I don't think it would ever go so far as applying to agents that have been affected by protective or healing magic, for example, even though one could make the case that such an individual wouldn't be alive without said magic.
Once again I have phrased things badly. I am looking for a range of actions which are considered scrying by at least 1 tribunal.
Or to put another way, if I had 3 examples of the most obvious scrying that was overlooked/forgiven/allowed (in cases where the target had not forfeited Oath protections), plus 3 examples of the most innocent/harmless/indirect actions that a Tribunal judged to be Scrying, I might have an expected range I can work with in the local Tribunal priorities.
Addenda similar to howWilliam Fireheart helped define the range of "interfering with mundanes"
But I suspect that if a magus did by magic what he could just as easily have done by mundane means, the issue will not be brought up. For example, if your covenant uses magic to bring in food, and that food is used to nourish grogs before sending them on a spying mission, I doubt any Tribunal will consider that magic use as "scrying".
Well, if the use of magic to send a message enables you to do so e.g. particularly quickly or particularly unobstrusively, sure, it counts as scrying. If you send your message via one of the horses in your stable, and it happens to be the magically created one which you really could not tell apart from the others, than no.
Sure, particularly if you had not enough silver on your own to "honestly" bribe said grog.
Ultimately, remember that in the Order your judge and jury is the set of your peers. The code is a "common sense" set of rules. If it feels like you are violating its spirit, the Tribunal will condemn you, otherwise it will acquit you. If it's somewhat borderline ... it depends on how many friends you have.
Where the Tribunal draw the line about YOUR actions - if they are not totaly similar to a previously settled case - is heavily impacted by your standing in the Tribunal's eyes, and your social network.
Magi are human, and they are biased: if they like you they will be less harsh/more forgiving.
I can imagine a scenario when you are a specialist valueted highly by the Tremere - if you are worth enough for them they maybe happen to block-wote to save your bacon.
On the other hand, House Tremere would like the application of the laws to be predictable - otherwise they are just wasting their time making sure all the laws and rules say what they want them to say.
Mythic Europe Intrigue level really depends on each campaign but I would recommend to make it high because it makes things so much more interesting.
In such a world, many powers are spying on you at all times. You have mundane spies which are convenant staff that knowingly or not report the activities to 3rd parties. Carouse occurs in all Taverns/Inns/Main dining halls of nobles all the time. Priests hear confessions and report back up the divine chain. Faeries lurk and see the best stories that are worthy to be told.
Magi scry, Arch Magi hide their scrying & Demons hear all sins.
You have a wizard's war coming up, pay up a bounty to get all the information you can get.
A Convenant's strength is often measured by others by the quality of their SpyMaster
All depends on how much your rival/victim/enemy is willing to pay. The order does not have a police force paid by your taxes. It has contractor detectives that are sworn to uphold the Hermetic code. Someone still needs, most of the time, to pay them to do any investigation. Only the worst of crimes will have them volunteer their time.
Petty scrying prior to a wizard's war is not likely to attract any attention unless the other party hires the necessary investigator. By petty scrying I mean direct scrying to InIm the Magi or close mundane allies & InMe effects that target directly the same groups. Using magic to gain knowledge more indirectly is not likely to be supported as a crime in any tribunal but if your accuser is petty enough, he can still pay for the investigation and make it a problem as no one likes being investigated.
List of things that are redlines for scrying:
InMe Target Magi or his close allies
Intellego to see/hear/smell/touch/taste the environment of Magi or allies
Having yourself or an agent invisible or in magical disguise to spy Magi or his allies
Using spirit magic to spy on Magi/allies
Making a deal with a creature to scry on Magi/allies
Things that do not cross the redline
Using magic to investigate past events involving Magi or close allies
Interrogate Magi/allies without magic
Pay for information
Use Mundane spies
Use mundane disguises including ones crafted using momentary rituals or Rego craft magic
Use logistic magic (teleportation/communication/food supplies/etc.)
Should be noted that the system is built to be able to get away with scrying. Easy to mimic another sigil. Magic traces disappear fast. Quaesitors are rare and busy and pricey. There are a number of effects that hide the crying magic. Scrying magic is already hard to detect as it requires a specific spell for it.
Using magic to investigate past events involving magi definitely "crosses the line", at least as much as using magic to investigate current events.
Using mundane spies "crosses the line" if magic is used to recruit, or communicate with, them (for example, using magic to ask a mundane crow to spy upon a magus; or to mentally commune with a traitorous servant of another covenant).
Using teleportation to spy upon a magus - e.g. to enter his sealed laboratory and look at what's boiling in the proverbial pot - definitely "crosses the line".
I'd say paying for information "crosses the line" if the bribe is created via magic, particularly if it could not be acquired in any other way. Similarly, I'd say using magic to craft a mundane disguise that could not be procured by mundane means "crosses the line".
Now, I do agree that whether something constitutes a violation of the Hermetic Oath, and whether it will result in punishment of the violator, are two very different questions. In some sagas, powerful wizards will get away with everything, even cold-blooded murder of other magi, as no one wants to antagonize them. In other sagas, zealous Quaesitors will fine you for "interference with mundanes" if your magically produced, superior wine gains a significant market share in the region. But the OP was about what violates the Oath, not what will result in your prosecution.
HoH:TL p.52 "If there was no intent or secrets revealed the case is trivial."
Setting aside that the accuser has to do all the work to gather the proof, Hermetic Law vs scrying is centered on protecting Secrets. Especially house/guild/cult secrets. Even hiding invisible in a hostile Aegis is not considered as scrying if the intent was just hiding and no secrets were revealed.
The core Hermetic law vs scrying as per TL can be summerrized by this excerp: " Thus attempts to discover magical secrets via magic are considered the most serious. However, any use of magic (not just Intellego spells) to spy or aid spying into a magus’s legal affairs is considered
an offense."
If the Players are being bullied by a Magi & they suspect foul play, they can justify scrying as they were looking into the nefarious activities of said Magi. They may not get away without a tap on their wrist but chances are, if the intent is proven to be just (suspecting nefarious activities) and no house/cult/guild secrets were revealed, consequences will be trivial. If anything, scrying on a member of the order in bad standing would be encouraged by many members of the order& at the peril of said scryer as the nefarious Magi probably does not have a nefarious reputation for nothing.
the rues of the order are less rules than guidelines (insert pirate accent if you must), and may be heavily political in their application.
The prohibition against scrying only applies to magi. Buying information from a hedge witch or giving a grog a magic item and asking them to find information out for you is perfectly legal. Of course so is offing said witch or grog (typically) by your rival. So long as someone else is using the magic and doing the investigation. Casting a spell to make your grog invisible is using magic to aid spying. Giving your grog a ring of invisibility and asking them to gather information about your rival means the magic is being used by the grog (and is under the grog's control), not yours. Depending on the tribunal this may require a further step of separation, but the general principal applies.
This is such a lawyer interpretation..... Which doesn't make it wrong, though.
The most important thing about hermetic law is that while Guernicus' desire was to establish a framework of just rules maintained by Quaesitors to stop the order self-destructing, it's nowhere near modern day police and courts. While modern day justice systems are arguably a lot better than medieval times, they are not perfect. The lack of proper justice for poor people we see today, was even worse before.
Justice is very much about who you know and what you can afford. To some degree if you are rich enough to pay the fine, it's just the cost you accept for doing what you want.
I don't think this can be right. It's your magic, used at your direction. I take the points about it being a political system, and there being grey areas, but if this was allowed there'd be no point in the rule at all.
Funnily enough, that used to be - almost word for word (iirc it was cloak, not a ring) - an example of something that was ruled as scrying by the Tribunal. Your magic and your grog - just extensions of your will.
Those things do not matter. Intent & damages toward learning magical secrets is what will dictate if you are going to be convicted or not.
If the grog uses the ring/cloak to get in the chambers of the wife of the Magi and indulges himself, the Grog's master might get into trouble as it will be a great motivator but no Quaesitor will stain the peripheral code with a scrying conviction for this. If the Grog witnesses a magical ceremony that is a house secret then yes, if he is found, his master is in trouble and if the intent is confirmed that it was to scry magically to specifically learn of the House secret ceremony, then this is the high crime conviction Quaesitors want to nail onto the wall.
