Invested device and triggering.

Hi fellows amici,

I was wondering about item and triggering.

  1. My first effect is a inCo base 5 with sun and constant duration. The use would be : when someone touches the item, the item can ask his name.
    I was wondering if "sun + touch" is okay? In fact, the item ask name one time at everyone who touches, but not during the "touch" (say the item is a sword, it asks name only when it's taken by the warrior, not during the fight which follows).

Then, when the person named XXXX take the item, others effect are triggered to stop being activated (say other effect is, for example, some PeCo to kill [you know the "sword which can only be put by the King"]). When XXXX let the item go, the others effect are triggered to be activitated again.

Until now, is it okay? I think so but not sure and I would'nt want to create a flawed item :slight_smile:... i have however a question: Can an item sense that it's taken without using an effect?
Because i have some kind of interrogation: say my item is taken by AAAA. AAAA is touching the item, thus, normally, the first effect must activate... but HOW can the first effect be triggered? "touch" range is autosufficient or not? Must the item possess some "InForm" to know it is moved and then triggering the first effect?

  1. Then is the tricky part.

A) about triggering of others effects

I said the "others effects" are active when XXXX is not touching the item.
I want them to not be "activated" imediatly but want them to be able to be activated.
Say it's a PeCo effect, i don't necessarily want it to be immediatly activated when XXXX let the item drop down (because, without target, it's useless!). I want the PeCo able to activate when anyone (being not XXXX (because the first effect would prevent the others effect being active)) take the item (and now, it has a target.

Would a PeCo (touch) be okay? Or must another triggering be used?
If i need another triggering:

  • when an effect is "used" but can't penetrate (example: the InCo in 1) is used but the parma of the user is greater than the penetration of the item), is it able to trigger others items? in other words, is the non penetration a fact which can trigger effects?
  • would i need a (penetrating if needed) effect to know the item is being taken by another than XXXX?

B) About multiple targets
Then what if 2 persons take the item in the same times:

  • is a PeCo (touch) with (multiple) uses okay?
  • would i need a PeCo (touch, group) with 1 use?
  • or, worst, a PeCo (touch, group) with (multiple) uses?

I think 1 is the best: anytime someone (being not XXXX) take the item, it triggers 1 use. If it's unlimited, no problem. If it has a finished number of uses, the (finished +1) user is not affected and can worn the item until the ... next sun duration, when the item resplenishes his uses per day !

My thought about this PeCo: it would be: PeCo (touch, unlimited uses) +3 triggering: activated when someone touch it, +3 triggering: not able to activate when first effect say XXXX is touching.

I hope i have been clear enough!

Thanks for your help fellows!

I would design this item as an invested item with two effects in it: one PeCo effect triggered by anyone touching the item, and one PeVi effect triggered only by special people touching the item.

Just to be specific, let's imagine that we want the item to break the arm of anybody who touches it, except for the magus and the two servants who clean his sanctum. Breaking a limb is a PeCo effect of base level 15. "Touching an item for more than 7 seconds" is a perfectly good triggering mechanism (the phrase "anything physical that you can imagine" on page 98 of ArM5 is quite permissive). So we don't need any special touch-detection spell or constant duration: the effect can simply be Range Touch, Duration Momentary, Target Individual*, which raises the level to 20 so far. We'd also want unlimited uses per day, which raises the level to a total of 30. (You can decide for yourself whether you want Penetration as well.)

* The example Corpus spells seem to be inconsistent regarding when a spell that effects only part of a person's body would use Target Part as opposed to Target Individual.

If that effect alone is instilled into the item, then it would break the arm of every single person who touches it. But we instill a second effect: a magic-dispelling effect, like a non-ritual Disenchant, that is limited specifically to Hermetic Corpus magic. Using the second General level guideline, "Dispel effects of a specific type with a level less than the level + 4 magnitudes of the Vim spell" (ArM5, page 160), we need to use a PeVi spell of base level 11**, so that it will affect the PeCo effect described above. Using Range Personal, Duration Concentration, and Target Individual raises the level to 16; we also want the item to maintain concentration, which raises the level to 21. We design the effect to be triggered immediately when a person touches the item, to remain triggered while that person keeps touching it, and to cease when the person stops touching it. We throw in unlimited uses per day, raising the level to 31. Finally, we design the effect so that only the magus and the two servants can trigger it; this raises the level to a final total of 34 (ArM5, page 99).

** Or base level 10, if we read "less than" as meaning "less than or equal to". :confused:

Now if the magus touches the item, the PeVi effect is immediately triggered, which causes the PeCo effect to be nullified as long as the magus is touching it. If anyone besides the magus or the two servants touches it, then the PeVi effect is never triggered, and 7 seconds later the PeCo effect is triggered, breaking the person's arm.

(Note that if a second person touches the item while the magus is touching it, then the second person won't be harmed. Note also that if the original two servants die or run away, the item won't recognize any new servants as being "special".)

One might argue that a ReVi effect is more appropriate than a PeVi effect, but the design would be similar.

Very interesting point of view, using vim to do a nice trick.
Perdo isn't a good option for the magus in case, but Rego is.

PS: For your **, i think it has been errata-ed, and less than means always less than or equal to.

Just design the killing effect to exclude the people mentioned...You don't need to suppress it then...