Is a Mythic America a remotely saleable product?

I've been doing this other thing for a while, not Ars, about failed colonial attempts in Africa, and how they led to the colonisation of Australia. The thing is, there's a pretty clear narrative shape of the thing, and when I was talking it over with some people, they said there's no way such a product would sell if I did an American skin of it, and thinking over their reasoning, it would kind of put paid to any attempt to write a 1220 Ars America. See if you follow it, and what you think:

Let me lay out the argument as I understand it.

Australians get the historical truth of what white people did when they arrived. The know it was effectively genocide. They have formally apologised, not just with a formal vote from the parliament, but with annual Sorry Day observances, and handed 75% of the country back to aboriginial people. Sure, it's the desert parts, and aboriginies still live shorter and more dreadful lives than white people, but when you discuss our founders with other Australians, they are more suprised that Arthur Phillip, the first governor, wasn't a racist scumbag than that later ones were. When you talk about the Dispersals, they get that this was an undeclared war. When you write about our history, Australians aren't suprised that actually, their ancestors weren't nice guys. Actually, some are suprised the convicts weren't nice guys, but they are used to the idea that early white Australians did terrible things, and not just because they were driven to it by extremes, but because killing black guys was convenient and profitable.

Americans, their argument goes, don't get this. Their national narrative is more heroic than that. Selling a product which says "This!" is just going to fail, because no-one wants to hear their ancestors were the Bad Guys. In 1220, the Americas are urbanised, by powerful civilisations. Way after 1220, the Europeans arrive, and plague sweeps through the Americas, killing off far more people than the Black Death did in Europe, and much of America fell back into a sort of terraformed wilderness that the white colonists thought strange or an example of the providential nature of God. But in 1220, that hasn't happened yet. Some of the cities are the size of London and, arguably, their codes of law are more advanced than the European ones. Early American colonies perpetually had trouble in that their people would bleed away into the surrounding Indian tribes. Not just men: women too.

An Ars America set in 1220, then, isn't about finding an almost empty land, its about finding a land so full you can smell the hearthfires for days before you hit the coast. If you try to play through the history of America, the player characters, by default, are in a historical position which isn't just uncomfortable, it's alien and it attacks their beliefs about their own country's history.

Let me give you an example: Pilgrim Fathers, land at Plymouth Rock seeking liberty? Well, they had freedom of religion in Holland already. They just wanted to stop other people from practicing their own (rather looser) religion, particularly near their kids. They chose Plymouth because it was an abandoned town whose (recently dead) inhabitants had helpfully planted the fields with corn before being wiped out by smallpox. The very first seed corn they find in America is pulled from an Indian grave they choose to violate. Can you design a game in which you treat Indian graves like Civilisation goodie huts without American gamers just saying "I will never use this."?

Does anyone see this as a problem for a 1220 American Ars setting? That American gamers kind of like to be the good guys, and their ancestors, by modern values, generally were, (and in saying this I'm not saying Australians were better, mind you) generally on the black hat side of the thing? Or is that central premise just rubbish?

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Being the bad guy is not a seller. My players have done genocide and make the inquisition weep due to its lack of imagination designing tortures, They even nuked Toledo in a game. Literally, with Vim radiation so you accumulated warping really fast and all. But that is an in game decision. they have also played more saintly (read: not sociopaths) characters in other cases. Your idea sounds great, but I doubt it would sell well. It is one of those things that people do not want to hear as you say. The difference between the US and other countries is that they are still a powerful country. Spain did pretty much the same, but we are quite clear that the conquistadores were a bunch of un-scrupled bastards that basically went, burned, stole and enslaved. And did that thinking they had the upper moral hand. And specially the hand on blackpowder and steel. And the enemy purses.

I consider myself fairly cultured, but had no idea about the population level in North America that you are claiming. Wow. If it is a wilderness supplement it MIGHT work. if it implies the mass murder of thousands, no way.

But america does not exist anyway in the game world, right? If you travel west you end up in Japan

Xavi

I'd never buy it, not because of the genocide thing (sorry, maybe I'm heartless and evil but I refuse to take moral responsibility for the actions of dead people who happen to share a portion of my genetic code) but simply because I have no interest in an Ars America game. For me, Ars Magica and Mythic Europe are fundamentally linked. I can't have one without the other.

Also, a high medieval fantasy game set in an alternate history North America, just doesn't appeal to me. No good reason really, beyond a general dislike of alternate history settings (with some few exceptions).

Well, that as well. This is why I am not really interested in C&C or anything beyond. Or soqotra. Some of the ideas there are just plain amazing, but they are outside my area of interest when it comes to Ars. The resting place of Sigurd, King Arthur and the Great Wyrm of the Pyrenees? Oh yeah! The tomb of Muhammad? All yours. C&C had some appeal because of Sahir mechanics that play in iberia and near north africa. But I ended not liking the mechanics (IO prefer them to have a magical version of the ROP:I spirit powers since it fits better) so it did not even appeal much in that direction either in the end. For me Ars is Europe as well

Xavi

Somebody already tried at a pre-columbian American setting for an RPG otherwise involving mostly Europeans. Look at this: paradigmconcepts.com/2011/11 ... stores.php . I cannot tell how well it sold. But whether writing an RPG setting is worth the effort you anyway better discuss with your family first, and your editor second.

Cheers

I think the biggest problem is that we don't actually know very much about 13th century North America, despite all the archaeology that's been done. This means any game set there is going to be essentially fantasy, with or without anachronisms drawn from colonial era Native Americans. That's not going to appeal to the same crowd that appreciates Ars Magica for the rich historical detail of Europe and the Middle East.

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What Jabir said.

To be honest, though, if you made a game in which the setting was based on the extant scholarship about the pre-Columbian peoples, and it was as well researched and as well integrated between system and setting as Ars Magica was, I would buy and play the crap out of that sucker. I adore detailed worlds which I can lose myself in, and something like that would be amazing.

I'm ethnically Afrikaans. I have my own colonial guilt cross to bear, and my own racial backstory to cope with. My ancestors were as straight-up evil as any Australian or American, they kept doing it for far longer, and they did it during a time when it was no longer acceptable in the rest of the world. We were just worse at it; the Zulus and Xhosa were a great deal better at resisting colonialisation, and the diseases were on their side rather than ours. In the end, we lost. Doesn't mean we weren't vile, and it doesn't mean that my ancestors weren't rounded human beings as well as hideous racists, which is a distinction that's sadly often lost.

But I don't feel that I have an emotional stake in an American (or Australian, or anything else) game. It features two groups that I don't identify with personally, which means that I can make a character who identifies with either group and play them without feeling like I have to prove anything or shy away from anything in order to keep myself from feeling bad about it. If you wrote an RPG which was about the Magyars migrating into the Hungarian plain and driving people before them, murdering and killing, then if it was good, I'd play it. If you wrote a game about the Vikings in Russia, and it was good, then I'd play it. If you wrote a game about the Middle Ages, in which an extremely exploitative economic system kept 90% of the populace in bondage so that rich people could afford castles and books... well, it is good, and I do play it.

So in answer to your question: Who would buy it? I would. If it was good.

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A couple of points to note:

The Aztec empire wasn't even a dream in 1220 - the Nahua who would become the core of the Aztec may not have even migrated to the region yet. So you get a bunch of city-states always fighting each other instead of an empire.

The "New England" natives enjoyed good nutrition growing up and practiced warfare as a way to impress chicks. They were, by comparison with medieval Europeans, taller, stronger, healthier, smarter, and better at fighting. They were winning the culture war until disease killed off the overwhelming majority.

The thing is, since Europe has little-to-no contact with the Americas at this time, you can do just about whatever you like with that part of the globe. One idea I've had is that with the resurgence of Odin*, a lot of newly-pagan Norse are going a-Viking, and that includes to Vinland. Then you get native Vinlanders coming over to Europe for some Conan-style tourism.

*My conceit with Odin is that he's a sorcerer-king template that goes to whoever succeeds at the Hanged Man ritual if there's an opening, and the Twilight of the Gods is what happens when Odin is so addled and paranoid by Warping that he inspires everyone to revolt against him. The cycle was interrupted by a young Order back in Charlemagne's day, and the imprisoned Jotun are pissed that they've been stuck this way for centuries.

-Albert

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Having the commentary in the OP with regard to Australians was an excellent hook to give me a view on how Americans might view this scenario. As an Australian I am uninspired by playing in my own history, in part because of how inhumane the history is (our settlement era history is brutal), and also because it feels ordinary to me. Europe is exciting and so damn far away. I think most of my gaming groups over the years would not have been keen either - sorry! Perhaps a setting which is Dreamtime based, but again - I don't think my players would find it appealing enough.

That is not to say that an American version might not be plausible - there seems to me more Americans interested in their history of European settlement than Australians keen on ours; given the amount of media which has been created.

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I'd pick it up, but then I like exploring the Cahokia archaeology, the out of place artifacts occasionally found, the legends of the Welsh-Prince-Turned-Native-American or the "Windmill"ruins which might be a Templar church, the possible Runestones in the Northeast and Minnesota along with the Newfoundland settlement, the mystery of Oak Island and the possibility that the Money Pit is a failed covenant.

You toss in things like the Chinese records which can be interpreted to show the Muslim explorers reached America, or the possibility of a Punic colony? I'm all over this. You haven't even touched the human sacrifice component of the Mesoamericas.

I am playing a game. In a world that's our world slightly off. I'm ok with that. I'd also point you to Northern Crown, Colonial Gothic, and Dogs in the Vineyard. If you don't mind Timothy, I'll pose the question to G+.

-Ben.

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Dang...took the words right out of my mouth. I'm a big fan of pre-colombian contact theories, both those that I believe there is strong historical evidence for, and those that I think are simply flights of fancy with no basis in reality.

I'm an American of Scandinavian/Irish descent. I am well aware of the terrible history of the post-columbus era, and do not hide from it, but then, I'm an American History major, and when people ask what my focus of study was in this broad subject, I reply "genocide."

Living in a remote area of northern california that was one of the last "frontiers," more natives survived here than many other places, so the subject is more common knowledge than in many other parts of the US, although its still quite "controversial" to bring up. Many (mostly white) people take the attitude "that was a long time ago, and I didn't have anything to do with it, so why should I care," prefering to ignore the effects of genocide of the descendents of survivors.

One thought, your OP seems to imply that "American" equals "white descendants of first settlers." Keep in mind that "American" includes natives, more recent european immigrants, the descendents of forcibly immigrated slaves, and other ethnicities that immigrated at various times.

I'm not entirely sure I can give a good answer about how the American market would respond until I know more about the subject you are proposing. Is it a game set in 1220 Mythic America? Would the default PC role be Native or European? If there's an "invasion" plot, would events mirror those of the real world, just hundreds of years earlier?

I have purchased several games that include elements of Native American cultures, such as Shadowrun, Deadlands, and the AD&D Maztica setting. Unfortunately, they tend to treat Native American cultures the same way other parts of popular culture and even history classes do - as either evil savages, noble savages, or doomed savages.

In my own ArM5 campaign, I have a secret desire as SG to lead the troupe on an Epic voyage in the footsteps of Leif Erickson, St. Brendan, and Madoc of Wales (as well as the Egyptians, Phonecians, and Romans). First, I have to lure them into the Hermetic Shipyard project, then the Ancient Magic of Ptolomic coordinates, and finally, figure out for myself how to SG a voyage through the barriers of water and/or fire...

I hope for them to meet up with the descendents of Madoc-Native unity in this alternate reality, the Misissippian culture. I will try to avoid the racism implicit in assumptions that real-world Misissippian culture was so advanced, it must have had native american roots by twisting the crypto-history and saying that Madoc was...well, I'll save that story for later, wouldn't want to spoil surprises in my own campaign....

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I'm not an American gamer, of course, but I don't think that this is necessarily a problem. But I have also been thinking a bit about exploration/colonisation games (or pre-colonisation games) in the context of the pacific.

Lots of American films and books are predicated on depictions of American colonists being "bad guys". For example, regardless of whether you think it is a good or bad film, an important part of the popular/successful film Dances With Wolves http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099348/ is that Kevin Costner's character is a "good guy" with respect to colonist/Indian interactions and the wider US Army is the opposite. Also, although it is fictitious, in numerous White Wolf games (Vampire, Werewolf, etc) the player characters are the bad guys (even if not always the badest guys) in the setting. And those were successful games.

So, I don't think that depicting "bad" historic behaviour or playing the bad guys is a problem.

I think what anybody (American or otherwise) would object to is being lectured to about the evils of their ancestors. If the game allows the players to explore the evils of their ancestors and doesn't force moral judgements on the players or force the player characters to do anything, it shouldn't be a problem.

The other thing to think about is your own actions in appropriating parts of some existing, real-world, culture, which you are (I am assuming) not a member of to form part of a game for the entertainment of people who are largely not of that culture. And what the ethics are around that. For example see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bionicle#M.C4.81ori_language_controversy

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It probably comes back to the group and the individuals. I can see a scenario where a player might behave in a way I find offensive, but is historically accurate. ie. I'd have a hard time playing with a severe discrimination regardless of setting/lore; and sometimes it breaks some historic setting.

Many years ago my roleplaying team was considering playing a fantasy rpg and Pendragon was suggested, with the team consisting of 4 women and 2 males - that ruleset was never going to fly as the team was far more like Macho Women With Guns, than Lady Sansa Stark. Telling them their career options were limited by gender devolved the discussion into a distraction.

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What I'm going to say here veers close to violating the "no modern politics" guidelines. Its not my intention to troll or offend, but if what I say here incites a flame war or otherwise offends, I encourage the moderators to remove my post. But when the OP essentially asks "how would Americans feel about their unacknowledged crimes against humanity being depicted in a role-playing game?" its natural that the conversation will get into some tricky ground.

Well, yes. So, unlike most early westerns, the Indians in this film weren't just savage stereotypes and the army wasn't pure heroism. Instead, we got the noble savage stereotype - the idea that Indians were morally superior but technologically backward and culturally unsophisticated, and thus doomed to die at the hands of a violent, militaristic, but superior culture. Their only possible savior was a member of that military, thus "proving" their inferiority. That he couldn't save them and had to be saved himself just "proved" how doomed they all were. It might have sold well, but believe me, that movie was offensive to a lot of people. I loved it at the time, but what did I know? I was a 10-year old white kid. Looking back, I'm kinda embarassed that I fell for that nouveau-racist junk.

There are villians and then there are Villians. Perhaps the fictitious part is important, amongst other considerations.

I run and play all kinds of games that crossed all kinds of moral boundaries. I once played in a game where we were a resistance against the Star Wars Rebellion because it was based on a hereditary warrior-nobility - we were anarchists. We bombed rebel transports, and eventually executed Princess Leia (Death to Tyrants!) Little is off-limits in gaming to me.

But I would be no more interested in role-playing the perpetrators of the historical American genocide than I would be in playing a train conductor trying to get to Triblinka on time.

I have no real problem with depicting ugly historical events with complex moral dilemas; but certain subjects require a certain sensitivity. I think that ArM5 does a great job with this, for example its portrayal of various real world religions, including minority ones like zoroastrianism, and ugly historical events, like the sack of Constaninople.

I've also gone full out in "hellboy" mode as a GM before, running a game involving commandos parachuting into nazi Germany to stop the SS from awakening the Great Old Ones. In cases like that, I avoid moral ambiguity.

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I would buy it if it was well written and not judgmental on the modern day Europeans/Americans. I've never felt any guilt in all honesty over what my ancestors did I have no control over their actions and I can't even imagine how different things where so long ago. Just fifty years ago the culture was very different I don't believe we can even imagine how it would be like to be born even a decade before we were.

To my eyes both sides where people willing and able to massacre other cultures or their own people, but at the same time being able to help each other. Just people following what culture they happened to be born into. Each side did things we would consider crimes against humanity today to downplay or overplay any of their actions is to spit on history and their existence as three dimensional humans. If the books remembered that I would absolutely be willing to buy it.

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Yes, interesting the see the response outside the core of fanatics. 8)

It all depends on what's done, although I'd buy it anyway.

Mythic America in 1220 is such a strange setting that you might as well run adventures in arcadia or india: It's just not myuthic europe, but a different place entirely. I don't think americans coudl be offended by such a setting, but it would be quite a different game: A tale of exploration, of unknown cultures, probably without the code to restrain (too much) magi.
I may be utterly wrong, but I have the impression that the desire from mythic america stems from the love for one's country, and the desire to have it represented in a game that's, in part, based upon our world. Yet the visions people have is based on much later legends and visions, post-colonialism actually, so I'm not sure that even such a supplement would be much loved by them, since they wouldn't find the tales they know and love. I know that I never knew america was like that before Colombus.

America when colonized (that is, post-colombus) runs into the problem described by the OP, IMO, and crosses 2 boundaries: space, and time.

BTW, totally agree with humboldtscott about Dance with the Wolves. You'll also notice that, in the aforementionned RPG, Aztecs are the bad guys and spanish the good guys.

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Yeah, I absolutely agree with all that. You are absolutely right, that there are problems with the depiction of the relationship between the colonial and native groups in that film.

This is a very, very easy trap for material based in this sort genre to fall into (game, film or book, or whatever) . And that, I think, is the much bigger problem than a potential audience being concerned that historic colonial powers are presented unsympathetically.

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I think Ars Magica has handled potentially controversial material well enough in the past that I'm not really concerned with the book being offensive to anyone, but I do think that the relative lack of written documentation concerning the Americas in the 13th century could make writing said manuscript a rather daunting task...

Perhaps a SubRosa treatment of Vinland (Mythic Newfoundland) could be used to test the waters...

It seems to me that a "Mythic America" inhabited by Mound Builders, Lamanites, Nephites, Welsh Indians, Lost Tribes of Israel, Minnesota Vikings, and the like, while a fascinating piece of 19th century Americana, is the very antithesis of the political correctness the OP and others seem to be seeking.

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