Is Forced Maturation Permanent

[Jonathan.Link]

@Matt Ryan

Yes, you are right. What I am trying to say is that a magically created creature could exist for a year without Duration: Year, hence my example of a chicken created with Duration: Ring that stays within the ring for a year. A spell with Duration: Ring doesn't have to be a ritual and does not require vis. It might be tricky getting the chicken to stay within the ring for a year, and for the ring not be be broken, but if both could be accomplished, a character could then kill and eat the chicken for sustenance, according to that bit of rules text.

Depends on what breaking the ring actually means, in the saga. Is it simply crossing over it, as in when you lean over it to poor grain into the circle? Or is it physically touching the circle to interrupt the energies? D:Ring T:Circle have a tendency to be problematic and create situations as you describe.
But, even if one were to do this, it a lot of effort for little reward, IMO.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Matt Ryan

This seems like an interesting loop hole and I'm surprised no one has exploited it.
Matt Ryan

Of course people have exploited it, at least I have. One of my games featured a herd of dairy cows that were transformed mice and didn't need to be fed over the winter because we let the duration Moon spells expire.

[MarioJPC]

One view is about the Ignem damage: the fire of Pillum of Fire is a magical thing and because that needs penetrate, lastig only the duration. But the burning wounds are parte of one begining magically but natural process.

[Halancar]

@Hargifex

The Creo Animal Level 15 base effect specifies:

"Cause an animal to reach full maturity over the course of a single day or night (this accelerated maturation only applies during the spell’s Duration, and thus the full effect requires a Sun Duration spell cast early in the day or night)."

Once the spell duration expires, does the fully mature animal revert back to an infant? Or do they remain an adult, aging normally from that point on?

There would be little point to the increased level of the guidelines for faster maturation if the effect were not permanent (since you'd have to up the Duration to get any use of the spell anyway). For that matter, given that the guidelines are of way higher level than simply creating a plant, there would be no point to them at all if it were not permanent. (Create a plant is level 1, and can create a mature plant; bring a plant to maturity starts at level 15 and ends at level 40 ! For that matter changing a plant into a more mature version of that plant is MuHe level 1...)
So, given the high levels of the guidelines, I must conclude that they are meant to be permanent, and that this is in fact the equivalent of the Perdo spells 'age a target', which are also permanent, except that since they improve the target they must come under Creo...

On a more theoretical level, it should be noted that the limit on Creo and permanency is worded as 'Magically created things last for the duration of the spell' in the Creo presentation. This is not a general limit on Creo effects, but a specific limit on Creo magic used to create things. This is restated in the Limit of Creation. The limitation on healing requiring vis to be permanent is mentioned separately (in the Corpus guidelines), and appears to be a flaw of Hermetic Theory (since some Hedge Traditions can break it, and in fact no theoretical Limit of Magic states it). Nowhere is there a general limitation on all Creo magic requiring vis to be permanent.

[Lamech]

@Jonathan.Link

@Matt Ryan

Yes, you are right. What I am trying to say is that a magically created creature could exist for a year without Duration: Year, hence my example of a chicken created with Duration: Ring that stays within the ring for a year. A spell with Duration: Ring doesn't have to be a ritual and does not require vis. It might be tricky getting the chicken to stay within the ring for a year, and for the ring not be be broken, but if both could be accomplished, a character could then kill and eat the chicken for sustenance, according to that bit of rules text.

Depends on what breaking the ring actually means, in the saga. Is it simply crossing over it, as in when you lean over it to poor grain into the circle? Or is it physically touching the circle to interrupt the energies? D:Ring T:Circle have a tendency to be problematic and create situations as you describe.
But, even if one were to do this, it a lot of effort for little reward, IMO.

You can use Rego Vim spells to extend the durations as well. Anyway its not really much of a loop hole. You need to feed the damn thing food. You can make food out of... food. Congratulations? You could probably make a rego he spell to change the food into meat.

[Tugdual]

@Lamech

Congratulations? You could probably make a rego he spell to change the food into meat.

Or Imaginem just to change the taste.

[BlackLiger]

@Lamech

@Jonathan.Link

@Matt Ryan

Yes, you are right. What I am trying to say is that a magically created creature could exist for a year without Duration: Year, hence my example of a chicken created with Duration: Ring that stays within the ring for a year. A spell with Duration: Ring doesn't have to be a ritual and does not require vis. It might be tricky getting the chicken to stay within the ring for a year, and for the ring not be be broken, but if both could be accomplished, a character could then kill and eat the chicken for sustenance, according to that bit of rules text.

Depends on what breaking the ring actually means, in the saga. Is it simply crossing over it, as in when you lean over it to poor grain into the circle? Or is it physically touching the circle to interrupt the energies? D:Ring T:Circle have a tendency to be problematic and create situations as you describe.
But, even if one were to do this, it a lot of effort for little reward, IMO.

You can use Rego Vim spells to extend the durations as well. Anyway its not really much of a loop hole. You need to feed the damn thing food. You can make food out of... food. Congratulations? You could probably make a rego he spell to change the food into meat.

Muto. If you're changing 1 thing into another that it cannot do naturally, it's Muto, and not permanent, where feeding your magic chicken grain turns it into real chicken permanently (well, until it goes off)

You can turn a slab of beef into cooked beef via rego, since that's a mundane process that normally needs fire. You can turn a large amount of dirt into stone, since that occurs naturally. You can turn clay into ceramics. (I plan to use this in my saga)

You cannot turn wood into grain. You cannot turn a cow into a chicken. You cannot turn air into water. These all need muto, not rego.

[Halancar]

@Lamech

You can use Rego Vim spells to extend the durations as well. Anyway its not really much of a loop hole. You need to feed the damn thing food. You can make food out of... food. Congratulations? You could probably make a rego he spell to change the food into meat.

You don't need a spell, just a trip to the local market...