Is Forced Maturation Permanent

The Creo Animal Level 15 base effect specifies:

"Cause an animal to reach full maturity over the course of a single day or night (this accelerated maturation only applies during the spell’s Duration, and thus the full effect requires a Sun Duration spell cast early in the day or night)."

Once the spell duration expires, does the fully mature animal revert back to an infant? Or do they remain an adult, aging normally from that point on?

It remains an adult

That is my belief as well, but is there a precedent in the RAW that you can refer me to? Most Creo effects will cease after their duration (e.g. healing, magically created objects, etc) so why do the changes wrought by maturation persist?

Because if you seee, taking that is just like the Perdo Corpus to age and so; that effect make one process, the effect of the process is permanent because is one natural. The concepto is more developed on others supernatural powers, but again, it's till being natural only accelerated.

Page 77, ñlast 2 paragraphs on Creo, specially the last one.

Just to assist discussing this, I am reproducing the last two paragraphs of the Creo description on page 77 here (I hope this isn't regarded as a copyright offense):

"A magus can also use Creo to make something a better example of its kind, even if it isn’t actually injured or damaged. Thus, Creo can make a horse as swift as the fastest horse, or a man as strong as the strongest man. Creo cannot make a horse able to run as fast as the wind, because no ordinary horse can do that, nor can it make a man strong enough to lift a castle. Since maturation involves becoming a better example of your kind, Creo magic can make something mature quickly. Aging after maturation involves becoming a worse example of your kind, and thus is covered by Perdo.

Magically created things last for the duration of the spell, but their effects last indefinitely. Thus, the footprints of a magically created horse do not vanish, nor does its dung, if it was fed on mundane food. If a magically created horse was fed on mundane food for a year, it would leave a mundane corpse when the spell expired, as the mundane food has been converted into mundane body. Conversely, magically created food only nourishes for as long as the duration lasts, and someone who has eaten it becomes extremely hungry when the duration expires. Things washed with magically created water stay clean, but people made drunk with magically created alcohol instantly sober up."

I bolded the only reference to maturation I see within that text. But nothing I read indicates that the preternatural maturation persists after the spell ends. And the line before it references making "a man as strong as the strongest man," but I think it is we can agree that short of a ritual effect, the effects of a spell to increase a man's strength WOULD end after the duration expired.

So - am I missing something?

The maturation is a natural process caused by magic. Once the magic is gone, the effects of the maturation (the creo effect) persist and you still have a mature animal :slight_smile:

Xavi, my concern is that by that argument healing is a natural process which, when caused by magic, should persist when the effect ends. But it is clearly stated that it does not (whether for game balance reasons or not is irrelevant).

So, any other evidence from the text that maturation is permanent?

That part is possible inscribed on the Animal Guidelines or in the first part about Spells or Arts chapters.

purification of the festering wound is a creo spell that speeds up healing (by giving a big boost to recovery totals) and its effects are permanent. the spell isn't instantly imposing the aging upon the creature (the chirurgion's healing touch approach), it is accelerating the natural maturation of the animal (the bonus to recovery rolls approach).

Yes I realize that this is not evidence from text. Sorry :blush:

Did anyone else notice this sentence:

This seems like an interesting loop hole and I'm surprised no one has exploited it. Can a magus create a magical chicken, feed it for a length of time, then eat its eggs for nourishment? Can the magus eat the chicken for nourishment? Can the magus draw a ring around the chicken coop, then magically create chickens with Duration:Ring, feed them for a year, then eat their eggs and flesh? Or is it just silly, maybe pointless, to think like this?

Matt Ryan

Magically created for a year... What does that mean? It's a ritual. It requires vis, and therefore really isn't a loophole.

Erik, I like this line of thinking. But the spell in fact does NOT speed up healing:

"The target gains a +9 bonus to Recovery rolls to recover from injuries or diseases, as long as he has been under the influence of this spell for the whole of the recovery interval. The recovery interval is counted from the time that"

It only grants a bonus to the recover roll - but the recovery period is the full normal length. So I think this is a false analogy.

It speeds up healing by making it take place at the fastest rate it naturally could, rather than at the rate it normally would.

Still, that's not the only thing to look at. Faerie Wizardry in RoP: Faerie explicitly speeds up healing by reducing the length between recovery rolls.

kingreaper, I respectfully disagree. Whether subject A, suffering a heavy wound and under the effects of Purification of the Festering Wounds, and subject B, suffering the same heavy wound and under no magical effect, recover first is entirely dependent on the outcome of their Recovery Roll. It is entirely possible for subject B to recover in the minimum recovery interval (due to good rolling) and subject A, due to poor rolls or botches, to recover after multiple intervals of time. The spell only creates good conditions for healing to occur. It doesn't increase the speed of healing. That is a secondary effect created by reducing the likelihood of a poor Recovery Roll total.

I apologize if I'm misunderstanding your intent or if I'm being overly semantic. But I feel identifying this difference is necessary to avoid reasoning by false analogy in answering my overall question about maturation.

But it doesn't say "magically created for a year". It says, "a magically created horse was fed on mundane food for a year." There is a difference.

Matt Ryan

That is the definition of a distinction without a difference. You are entirely correct that the text doesn't say magically created for a year. Be that as it may, the loophole still doesn't exist. You can't feed a horse for a year on mundane food, if the horse doesn't exist for the entire year.

On average, A will heal significantly faster than B.

Given the same rolls, A will heal at least as fast as B, and probably significantly faster.

Sure, it's possible for B to heal first, but that's only because other factors speeded Bs healing. A still heals faster than they would have without the bonus.

Yes, it's a secondary effect; but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A creo ignem spell surrounding someone with flame will kill that person eventually; that's also a secondary effect, but it's very real.

Yes, you are right. What I am trying to say is that a magically created creature could exist for a year without Duration: Year, hence my example of a chicken created with Duration: Ring that stays within the ring for a year. A spell with Duration: Ring doesn't have to be a ritual and does not require vis. It might be tricky getting the chicken to stay within the ring for a year, and for the ring not be be broken, but if both could be accomplished, a character could then kill and eat the chicken for sustenance, according to that bit of rules text.

It's drawn out and complicated, but it provides food that isn't created by spending vis, and I think that is a loophole.

Matt Ryan

The think withy healing is that insta-healing is NOT a natural process. If you blast someone with Chirgurgeon's healing touch they are recovering in the blink of an eye, and this is unnatural. However, if what you do is to ensure that his body heals properly with magic (bonus to recovery), the effects are permanent once the spell ends :slight_smile:

Growing is a natural process for a living being (until they reach maturity, then decay becomes the natural process). Speeding up this process is magical, but the effects are permanent since you are advancing up the growth, not transforming them to adulthood straight away. Yeah, fine line, I know, but it is how the rules play. I am not one of the rules gurus around here though, so wait for a better informed rules guru to corroborate this (or say to me that I am an idiot :mrgreen: ) if you prefer :slight_smile: But in general you will find that this is how the game is played by most people around here, and we all tend to belong to different gaming groups. That must mean something.