Is Rego Mentem craft magic a thing?

Just that - while messing about in a target's mind is generally Perdo Mentem (removing memories), Creo Mentem (creating new memories), or Muto Mentem (modifying memories) - Rego Mentem is usually just all about controlling the target's actions.

However, Rego is also the Technique one uses to mimic standard 'natural' behavior, albeit done in an unnatural speed. With that in mind - is there any way to use the rules for craft magic to represent what, to a modern audience, would be psychological manipulation? Or therapy? Ie, permanent (or near-permanent) effects that represent a keen understanding and manipulation of the human mind, but ultimately in a natural way?

I mean, it's well understood that people are fully capable of emotionally manipulating others into viewing themselves differently, or convincing them that a certain course of action is better than another, for example. Could ReMe magic be used to emulate this sort of long-term, but more subtle, effect of human interaction?

Interesting question. It can cause them to respond in a predetermined way, and I would guess over time that will become the target's normal expected outcome.
E.g. A spell which makes the target play poorly at cards and change their expectations to loose all the time. When the spell finally expires the target might continue to play badly, at least for a while.
But I doubt that ReMe can make the changes in a mind with exceptional speed (like Rego craft magic). If the change in memory and skill is going to stick after the spell expires then it needs to build up over time. Otherwise isn't it too similar to creating permanent memory or creating skills?

My thought is that there's probably an Aristotelian/medieval understanding of psychology and free will that's going on here that may (or may not) prevent this from occurring. I suppose there's a similar question that concerns using ReAn to herd sheep, rather than sheer and butcher them. But then again, this starts to get out of Craft, and into Profession, I suppose.

I mean, at its most basic, I would think that you'd be able to use ReMe to assist in a Guile roll, and that the consequences of that roll wouldn't fade away when the spell ended. But if that's the case, then can you speed up that Gile roll from taking an hour to taking 1 round? (At the appropriate +3 Difficulty, due to using Int+Finesse, rather than the Gile ability, of course.)

Hi,

...and Hmm. On the face of it, this approach seems reasonable. But... it isn't.

Mentem isn't the brain. It includes the mind, but also includes thought, which ReMe cannot create. So although I can use Guile or Charm or whatever to make someone believe something, I cannot use "Mentem Craft Magic" to simulate this quickly because I am also creating an idea, which is Mentem, so its creation absolutely requires CrMe. ReMe "craft magic" lacks the raw material on which to work.

So, you want ReMe to assist with a Guile roll? Well, what is the ReMe doing? Existing ReMe can help with Guile; if someone trusts me under the influence of ReMe, Guile is certainly much easier.

Of course, social skills aren't craft skills, so craft magic doesn't apply at all here. But even if it did.... this doesn't really work.

Psychotherapy isn't quite a thing either, and it's not a craft. But there's dyscrasia....

Anyway,

Ken

Oh,

And while something like ReTe craft magic is substituting magical manipulation of, say, stone, for mundane physical manipulation of stone, ReMe craft magic cannot do anything similar to this at all, because there is no mundane manipulation of the mind or of thought. There isn't a single skill that does this.

So again, no Mentem craft magic.

Anyway,

Ken

Well, I think part of the issue is that Chirugy isn't a Craft skill, either - but you can use ReCo to do super-fast surgery (A&A, pg. 60-61). As such, Craft magic is called "Craft Magic" due to its most common application, rather than because it's limited to those abilities.

That being said, even A&A says that using ReCo to do surgery is "similar to craft magic", rather than identical. So it seems to be one of those Ars things where, if you can do it in one TeFo, you can do something similar in another TeFo.

I think another issue is that Craft abilities aren't limited to crafting objects - they also include the ability to earn a living, interact with guilds, and in general be a professional at X, where X is "making something". (As opposed to Profession skills, which may not include a physical object as an outcome.)

Also - just because there aren't any abilities that only exist for mental manipulation, doesn't mean you can't use abilities to mentally manipulate people - pretty much any ability that can be rolled with Presence or Communication could (arguably) contain some ability to manipulate someone. Therefore, the fact that there isn't a specific skill for mental manipulation doesn't seem to be particularly relevant.

A&A p.60 box Chirurgical Magic is not Craft Magic, nor does that box apply Craft Magic guidelines. Quite to the contrary, this box contains new CrCo and ReCo guidelines and spells just similar to Craft Magic, and these do not allow "super-fast surgery" in the sense of super-fast HoH:S p.60 Rego Magic.

Not quite. Craft Magic in ArM5 rules is a set of spells and guidelines.

That's the point: these guidelines and spells are similar, but different.

No. This is not a valid argument: you stir around in complex text until everything looks alike, and out of that mulligan you draw an invalid analogy.
Guidelines for ArM5 Craft-like ABA Magic or such do not exist, and neither do spells to derive them from. And like A&A p.60 box Chirurgical Magic, they would have been written as new guidelines: similar, but not the same as those for Craft Magic.

Cheers

EDIT: You can still serve mulligan to your troupe, and find out what they think.

I think it depends how you look at it- for example being able to pull off a long con in seconds might be possible, but the "product" of ReMe "craft" magic is not going to be some form of psychological breakthrough as we see it today.

I should think so: magic like that of Persephone on MoH p.92f can accomplish that.

Cheers

Hi,

No. No mundane ability does any mental manipulation. There's a mundane ability to play music. Not Mentem. There's another mundane ability that lets a person do physical activities in the presence of which, people are likely to feel comfortable. That's also not Mentem. There's another mundane ability that lets a person do things that are socially appropriate. Also not Mentem.

There isn't a single mundane ability that does mental manipulation of someone else's mind. Not one. Many mundane abilities often affect a mind indirectly: Single Weapon, Charm.... None of these are Mentem. (Art of Memory is a strange Ability that lets you manipulate your own thoughts, and even create a specific kind of thought.)

So there is no analogue for craft magic of any kind. Chirurgy uses mundane means to affect a body, directly, so ReCo can mimic that. Sculpting uses mundane means to affect a stone, so ReTe can mimic that.

Of course, you can do what you want. But if your version of things is correct, then I can use ReMe to instantly teach my apprentice for a season. Spend 10 minutes casting, instant magus!

Ugh.

Anyway,

Ken

You could claim that craft:carenty does not affect the wood directly but uses saws, chisels, and knives. That being said there are a number of mundane skills which do affect the mind- charm, guile, intrigue, whose indirect affects can be simulated with mentem magic the same way working on wood with a chisel can be reproduced with herbem magic. The real question it seems to me is whether the craft magic rules should apply when the ability being used is not a craft. Certainly finesse while wielding a sword with magic does not work the same way, allowing one to wield for months worth of combat in mere moments...

Uses saws, chisels and knives to directly affect the wood. A carver with sufficiently sharp fingernails wouldn't need the tools.

The effects of the skills might affect the mind... or might not. Nothing about Charm touches someone else's mind. The charmer does things, which the prospective charmee perceives (using parts of the mind that are thoroughly covered by Imaginem) and the result is processed by the mind.

No, because mundane crafting directly affects the medium, with or without tools. Charm and Etiquette do not.

Again, there is no problem. ReTe Sun duration ought to allow me to wield a sword using Finesse. But ReTe "craft magic" cannot let me engage in a season's worth of slaughter all at once, because ReTe does not affect the Co/An/etc of the stuff being killed. An ordinary ReTe (Mom.) of appropriately high level might allow me to move a sword very quickly through an army, but that's not the same thing at all.

As Kevin noted, Chirurgy is not a Craft, yet 'craft magic' applies. The reasoning for this seems straightforward: A person using mundane means can affect a body, so ReCo can do the same.

Charm does not directly affect the mind, which kind of has free choice, unlike the block of wood.

But again, if you like this sort of thing, ReMe to teach a season instantly ftw.

Anyway,

Ken

What would you consider Teaching? That is not mundane manipulation of mind?

From a game balance perspective, I am very nervous about spells which performed instantaneous teaching. But from the bare description of the Rego Technique, I am not sure why such a spell wouldn't work. I am not sure why gaining more points when studying Arts Liberales in a season is less natural than a tree bearing fruit out of season.

Hi,

A tree bearing fruit out of season is ReHe, but not craft magic: It is something that a tree does naturally, but not something that a person can put into effect through mundane means. Carving a tree into a totem pole using ReHe is craft magic.

Anyway,

Ken

This doubt is mostly answered here:

Cheers

To me Rego Craft Magic means puppeteering with precision.

Imagine you mind control a character who has no weapon skills into firing a bow. I think you could use the Magus finesse to aim that shot.

Or help the princess dance at the ball. I am convinced however that a magus finesse should be limited by what he knows about the skill in question himself. I don't think a magus can hex someone into dancing better if he has no clue of dancing. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the magic is in the fact that you can mind-control someone into something you can't do yourself.