Issue with Criamon

[Jarkman]

@Timothy Ferguson

If you mean Shamanic in the sense of one who dwells outside the society and enters it to bring it back into balance, then yes, Empedocles did this quite a bit.

Yes, that's what I mean in a way.

Although by that definition the Lone Ranger is a shaman...

Err, right... That's not what I mean.

The local shamans in the area where the Cave of the Twisting Shadows is found used the fly argic as an haluncinogen. It's a red capped mushroom with white spots. The name for it in Latin is Muscaria, which is the current Primus's name, because she's descended from that group.

Indeed.

I'm wondering more about Central Asian Tengrist shaman really, if that clears things up. I can see them being similarly Divine associated and the seem to have a lot in common with the Path of Seeming.

BTW can you envisage Taoist and Buddhist Criamon in your concept of Criamon (given you wrote an article on these for Hermes Portal a while back)?

Thanks,

Jarkman

[Mithriel]

@Timothy Ferguson

Given that there's a firm barrier to how much can be included in a chapter, there's a need to strike a balance between fluff and crunch, and Criamon's got enough fluff in it.

Well, I'm still not convinced. The Criamon chapter is clearly not as fluffy as the others.

@Timothy Ferguson

It was written in response to TMRE, which has all the fluff you could want for a lot of the groups you'll find in Criamon, so there was no need to do the lot again.

Is Criamon included in TMRE?

[Fruny]

@Mithriel

Is Criamon included in TMRE?

No, TMRE is completely House-agnostic.

[Jarkman]

@Mithriel

@Timothy Ferguson

Given that there's a firm barrier to how much can be included in a chapter, there's a need to strike a balance between fluff and crunch, and Criamon's got enough fluff in it.

Well, I'm still not convinced. The Criamon chapter is clearly not as fluffy as the others.

@Timothy Ferguson

It was written in response to TMRE, which has all the fluff you could want for a lot of the groups you'll find in Criamon, so there was no need to do the lot again.

It really seems unfortunate that HoH:MC was published before TMRE.

Err, now for soemthing less obvious...

More than any other House, I suspect the Criamon chapter suffers from the inverted schedule although the lack of the Alchemy Mysteries seems to lessen Verditius inadvertently as well. Bjornaer and Merinitia already had strong concepts evoked in Guardians of the Forest.

I look forward to the "fluff" of TMRE...

Jarkman

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@Jarkman

BTW can you envisage Taoist and Buddhist Criamon in your concept of Criamon (given you wrote an article on these for Hermes Portal a while back)?

I can see quite a few Criamon who hold beliefes which are Therevada Buddhist, although they might not know to call them Buddhism. There is a fascinating culture that arises on the European end of the Silk Road which has Greco-Buddhist art, religion and philosophy, and I kind of suspect that Criamon's master came from there, although all of that sort of speculation was wound back in the final draft.

Criamon himself is a -lot- like a Toaist immortal, living as a sort of eternal ghost on his Mount Meru (holy mountain at the navel of the world) and training acolytes who interact with the world. The Path of Beacons, hinted at but not developed, is more like that again, as each Criamon makes a new sacred space.

[Jarkman]

@Timothy Ferguson

I can see quite a few Criamon who hold beliefes which are Therevada Buddhist, although they might not know to call them Buddhism. There is a fascinating culture that arises on the European end of the Silk Road which has Greco-Buddhist art, religion and philosophy, and I kind of suspect that Criamon's master came from there, although all of that sort of speculation was wound back in the final draft.

I'm fascinated by the Silk Road and the possibility of setting a Saga at its Western end, which is why I ask in fact. Most of the Silk Road seems to have been Mahayana Buddhist however, which doesn't really fit as well into Criamon IMO.

I can't quite see why you'd position Criamon's master from there.

Criamon himself is a -lot- like a Toaist immortal, living as a sort of eternal ghost on his Mount Meru (holy mountain at the navel of the world) and training acolytes who interact with the world. The Path of Beacons, hinted at but not developed, is more like that again, as each Criamon makes a new sacred space.

Hmm, yes. I think Taoists might fit into Criamon.

I'm wondering how they'd fit as Mythic Companions currently (rereading the old Hermes Portal articles of yours, as well as comments on the Divine and Other Faiths thread from the Berklist this time last year).

They kind of work using Divine Methods & Powers (like Ascetics) but they don't seem to fit with True Faith as the're probably Faerie aligned like Buddhists once you take into account all the immortals etc. I'm having diffciulty reconciling a character with Divine origin powers but Faerie aligned beliefs without doing a direct substitution...

Regards,

Jarkman

[Timothy_Ferguson]

Quoth the Jarkman:

I'm fascinated by the Silk Road and the possibility of setting a Saga at its Western end, which is why I ask in fact. Most of the Silk Road seems to have been Mahayana Buddhist however, which doesn't really fit as well into Criamon IMO.

I can't quite see why you'd position Criamon's master from there.

I think the Mahayana influence is stronger in Chinese areas, which peters out in the far west of the road, but could be wrong.

I'd position Criamon's master from there basically because its hard to see where else you'd get Cha'an Buddhist things from, in Europe. I missed mentioning the obvious Buddhist idea: the riddles. Now I can see that they are possibly descended from, say, Zeno's paradoxes, but let's be honest with ourselves here, the first guy playing the Criamon wasn't thinking of Zeno, IMO, he was thinking of zen. Now, zen's actually Chinese, although the name is Japanese, and Greco-Buddhist mysticism's as close as I can get to it in the game area.

So, not a -good- reason, but its the best retcon I have so far.

I'm wondering how they'd fit as Mythic Companions currently (rereading the old Hermes Portal articles of yours, as well as comments on the Divine and Other Faiths thread from the Berklist this time last year).

They kind of work using Divine Methods & Powers (like Ascetics) but they don't seem to fit with True Faith as the're probably Faerie aligned like Buddhists once you take into account all the immortals etc. I'm having diffciulty reconciling a character with Divine origin powers but Faerie aligned beliefs without doing a direct substitution...

In the new version of the cosmology, I'm inclinded to agree that Mahayana Buddhists are Faerie worshippers. I'm inclined to say that the Court of hte Jade Emporer are Magical. Unlike the Viking/Germanic and Greco-Romans panthoens, there does not seem to have been a Titanomachic struggle in the far east, which of itself is interesting. Although early Toaism does give way to the structured Confuciansim...

[Jarkman]

@Timothy Ferguson

I'd position Criamon's master from there basically because its hard to see where else you'd get Cha'an Buddhist things from, in Europe. I missed mentioning the obvious Buddhist idea: the riddles. Now I can see that they are possibly descended from, say, Zeno's paradoxes, but let's be honest with ourselves here, the first guy playing the Criamon wasn't thinking of Zeno, IMO, he was thinking of zen. Now, zen's actually Chinese, although the name is Japanese, and Greco-Buddhist mysticism's as close as I can get to it in the game area.

Well, for a mythical game with an anachronistic ahistorical magic system, I guess that'll just have to do, eh?

I mean Criamon as far back as ArM1 are just not European - Sufis? Yes. Buddhists? Yes. Taoists? Yes? But Judaeo-Christian? No. They're one of the most unEuropean parts of Mythic Europe really. (Discordian Joke pre ArM4? Yes)

But they are cool...

In the new version of the cosmology, I'm inclinded to agree that Mahayana Buddhists are Faerie worshippers. I'm inclined to say that the Court of hte Jade Emporer are Magical. Unlike the Viking/Germanic and Greco-Romans panthoens, there does not seem to have been a Titanomachic struggle in the far east, which of itself is interesting. Although early Toaism does give way to the structured Confuciansim...

Hmm, hard to reconcile with the "Three Religions are One" philosophy though - Taoists Magical, Buddhists Faerie, Confucianism ?. But not Divine.

Seems like the east gets sticked in ArM5 unfortunately.

Jarkman

[Jarkman]

Incidentally another thought:

Do Criamon necessarily have to be Hermetic magi or even Gifted to follow the Paths or can a Companion also learn Enigmatic Wisdom and House Criamon Lore and initiate the House's Mysteries?

For example, a Sufi Companion following the Path of Walking Backwards...

Thanks,

Jarkman

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@Jarkman

Hmm, hard to reconcile with the "Three Religions are One" philosophy though - Taoists Magical, Buddhists Faerie, Confucianism ?. But not Divine.

Seems like the east gets sticked in ArM5 unfortunately.

Jarkman

Well, you could say that the Jade Emporer is the intermediary of the Divine, which Confucious had a name for. It's just that the Divine, in Chinese thought, isn't willing to give you personal intercession. The angels (um...Chinese gods) act as the guys who fiddle at the the margins of the Ineffable Plan for you. If you want a Divine in China, that is.

I'd also point out that technically Confucianism's not theological. He basically says "Gods might exist. The dead might need your offerings. I have no idea. You might as well." So, it might not have an Aura at all.

[Jarkman]

Well, you could say that the Jade Emporer is the intermediary of the Divine, which Confucious had a name for. It's just that the Divine, in Chinese thought, isn't willing to give you personal intercession. The angels (um...Chinese gods) act as the guys who fiddle at the the margins of the Ineffable Plan for you. If you want a Divine in China, that is.

Err, do you mean treat Confuscionist/Taoist ideas of intermediaries like Christian angels/saints?

I'd also point out that technically Confucianism's not theological. He basically says "Gods might exist. The dead might need your offerings. I have no idea. You might as well." So, it might not have an Aura at all.

I'm wondering if Confuscianism would work better as an odd quasi-Mystery like Ars Notoria, with studying a combination of lore resulting in particular Virtues once particular stages are achieved...

Jarkman

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@Jarkman

Incidentally another thought:

Do Criamon necessarily have to be Hermetic magi or even Gifted to follow the Paths or can a Companion also learn Enigmatic Wisdom and House Criamon Lore and initiate the House's Mysteries?

For example, a Sufi Companion following the Path of Walking Backwards...

Thanks,

Jarkman

Hrrrrm, I honestly don't know. I think that under the TMRE structure you do need the Gift ,but I can kind-of see that you might be able to do something else. One point I'd make, though is that a Sufi companion will eventually get some sort of Faith I imagine, and become one of the characters out of RoP:D.

[Hertzberg]

"Hrrrrm, I honestly don't know. I think that under the TMRE structure you do need the Gift ,but I can kind-of see that you might be able to do something else."

Really? Haven't got TMRE so I don't know, but according to Mystery Cults the HeartBest can be initiated even by unGifted characters. So there seems to be one exception at least. RoP: The Divine suggests that some divine traditions also uses the initiation rules from Mysteries. So that's potentially a lot of exceptions.
Anyone know the answer to this one?

//Fredrik Hertzberg

[cj.23]

@Hertzberg

"Hrrrrm, I honestly don't know. I think that under the TMRE structure you do need the Gift ,but I can kind-of see that you might be able to do something else."

Really? Haven't got TMRE so I don't know, but according to Mystery Cults the HeartBest can be initiated even by unGifted characters. So there seems to be one exception at least. RoP: The Divine suggests that some divine traditions also uses the initiation rules from Mysteries. So that's potentially a lot of exceptions.
Anyone know the answer to this one?

//Fredrik Hertzberg

I was interested in using the mechanics to explore initiations for companions, but ultimately TMRE is about Hermetic, and thus Gifted, magi and theuir actions. You are of course very free to do as you wish with the mechanics,, and as pointed out they do get applied in sorts of contexts. The version given in HOH:MC is an abridgment of the full rules in TMRE though. I always say do wahtebver suits your saga!

I think there was some discussion of this topic on the Berklist when HOH:MC came out, and Timothy can probably advise you

cj x

[Jarkman]

I would urge everyone that was involved in the original thrust of this thread (and the similar concerns about Bjornaer) to read TMRE and then reread the relevant sections of HoH:MC (ie. the order that the books were intended to be published) and then see if their perception is altered.

I think this would be interesting...

Jarkman

[BromoGNU (B I)]

@Timothy_Ferguson

Well, Empedocles, who was the key figure in the Cult of Twilight in the last edition, by the way, was a classical philosopher. He's also a sufistich heriophant.

Empedocles was one of my favorite pre-Socratic philosophers. I think you got most of it in line with my understanding. While I am also a big fan of Discordianism, I loved the chapter, and put in a few tweaks of my own. I take issue with Gorgiastics since I felt Gorgias was misunderstood and the surviving writings can be interpreted several ways, and my way wasn’t a rejection but ironic rhetorical tricks.

Anyway hats off to the Criamon. I can easily square the Criamon with the Divine Plan given Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all capable of being of the Divine, and given the campaign I am crafting will have divine auras across the Silk Road and into India … I think it’s another facet of the unknowable, infinite indescribable Divine plan.