Issue with Criamon

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

Well, more power to you: you can't please everyone.

This is false. The Enigma is what they are trying to solve, and each path is a different philosophy to the solution. The difference is that the Enigma is now actually defined.

Yep. Only the servants of the Divine are right, in game. Every other form of immortality in TMRE is wrong too, I'd point out. They are less wrong than most Hermetic magi.

For the same reason that all of the other Hermetic magic works, despite being flawed.

Criamon can have magical tatoos, and simple rules for it are given in the chapter. They are just before the rules for skull-binding.

The reason for the change is that, as originally designed, TMRE was meant to come out first, and it has rules for both Inscription on the Soul and magical tatoos. Each book needs to stand on its own, so it was either have you, the reader, pay for exact duplicates or choose to just refer to the earlier (now later) book and use a simple system that you hadn't seen before, that was novel.

Well, there you go...this chapter was not for you.

Then use the old one...I'm not forcing you to change. I'd point out that I wrote the detailled version of the old one in ArM4, in Sanctuary of Ice, so I have to say I'm suprised by people defening what was written deliberately as a substanceless void, but maybe its flaws are more obvious to me because I had the chance to seriously look at it. I'd also point out that 4th ed Criamon fit perfectly well in the new system, because I wrote the detailled version of both and made sure it was the case, and its a requirement on all authors that such be the case.

Well, then it just wan't the book for you. Better luck with the Infernal, eh?

22

Guess this is one of the things I didn't understand correctly.

There, I don't understand your explanation. 8) So, are Criamon tatooed guys or imprinted guys?

I will.

I was referring more to OoH/HoH (yeah, that's old), there's too little in the other books to judge.

Dunno. It cannot be much worse than the Maleficium, though. 8) Did some of the stuff from BMoG make it into the Infernal?

23

Some have tatoos, some don't. Some have imprints, some don't. Virtually all have stigmata, although there are exceptions.

Seriously look at OoH, and attempt to make any definitive statement as to what the whole mess of it means. It's a deliberately non-descriptive style piece. That's cool for old hands, but for new players, I don't really think a quarter book saying "Look, do what you want..." is appropriate. I'd also point out that the few bits where it really nails its colours are on the Art of Vim, which, because the Magic Realm in the 5th edition rulebook is so different to the Magic realm in the 2nd edition rulebook, don't work anymore.

I -could- have just written them vauge, but originally you were meant to see them after the extreme detail of TMRE, and a "Do what you like." House Criamon would be no different to the Children of Hermes, or some of what I presume the Societas will be.

I think a lot of the people criticising the changes I've made aren't so much criticising the new canon, as the fact that I've decanonised the layer of interpretation they put on OoH to make it a functional piece of writing. I can see that objection, but basically my counter to it is that everyone had a different overlay on the Criamon, and I couldn't fit all of those in.

I'm sorry, I don't know. I do know its better the the Maleficum.

24

I liked the Criamon section, I thought it provided a lot of the help I needed to fully flesh out the House, and especially liked the Path of Strife (I made an old Criamon on that Path who lives at my players' Winter Covenant).

The two things that weren't in it that were on my wish list were: Criamon the Founder. So far all of the Founders have been pretty thoroughly described, much more so than previous editions. The explanation given for the lack of details is fine and makes sense, but I still like having historical/legendary info on the Founders. And the other thing I was hoping for a larger treatment on Twilight, like other Virtues and Flaws, kind of like the way they show how to create beasts in the Bjornaer section. I guess I miss the Virtue that allows you to write a better book.

My players still passed on them, despite the fact that the Mysteries that the Criamon have seem to be the most powerful in that book (which I think is also appropriate).

25

I'm sorry again, twice. First, I've mistaken stigmata for imprints. Sounds I need to read again what the difference between stigmata, imprints, and tatoos is (I liked the idea of a parens marking his apprentice). Second, I still don't follow your explanation. Must be some mind block. Or you're referring to stuff I don't know, such as the new Mysteries book.

To be more concrete about what I disliked, here are some factual elements. In MC, each house has 10-12 pages describing its backgroud, i.e., history and house society. Save House Criamon. One paragraph about the founder, you may also add some of the Twisting Shadows part. The rest is about mystic stuff and mysteries. I expected to find the same than in the other chapters, i.e., the OoH/HoH stuff expanded (yes, it was too short).

I didn't identify paths as philosophies, either. How come the mystic stuff feels "real", and these paths do not? When speaking about philosophies, I was referring to philosophers from the Antiquity, sufism, pious magi, or whatever.

In short, I'm uneasy with the chapter's balance.

26

Criamon magi, indeed any magi, may have tattoos or inscriptions if they wish. Stigmata are usual for Criamon magi only. Stigmata are created by the magus becoming more enlightened.

So you'd prefer I told you he was from Naples? Criamon's master was an Empedolcean magus...I give you the history of his cult in the chapter. The House society is described (Clutches, just like before.)

Criamon's House history has always been shorter than other people's because they have sat out the big crises of the Order. Previously they have been too incoherent to be decisive. Which side were they on during the Schism? Corruption? Sundering?

Rather more than that, given that Criamon's still around. He's technically the only Founder with implied stats in the current edition.

You can't expand HoH Criamon: it's a Discordian joke. If you try you just get Clan Book Malkavian with the vampire bits taken out. I've tried: the bigger you made the old Criamon the more obvious it was that you were just slapping together weirdness for the sake of weirdness and pretending that there was an underlying theme.

Well, it's the lead paragraph in each path...

Well, Empedocles, who was the key figure in the Cult of Twilight in the last edition, by the way, was a classical philosopher. He's also a sufistich heriophant.

The Path of Walking Backward are essentially sufis, the Path of Strife are based on the left hand of Empocleanism, the Path of Seeming are gnostics, essentially. The Path of the Mirror is based on Hermetic ascension.

The idea that you'd get the same sort of balance as in TL is a bit of a worry, really. TL is not a mechanics heavy supplement, but MC was certain to be.

2 Likes
27

Since Tim seems to be following this thread closely, I thought I would ask a few questions about one of the neatest ideas I've seen in some time - the Path of Walking Backwards. While fascinating, this character concept is so different than the normal Ars Magica magi that I'm unsure how to approach certain parts of it.

First, how do magi on the Path deal with Certamen? Wizard wars? The parts of the Oath requiring them to kill? It seems like these are issues that would come up regularly, and the Criamon must have evolved some standard responses to keep the Tremere and others from bullying them with Certamen all the time.

Second, how does the Path relate to Holy Magic? They seem like natural complements.

Third, how do religious members of the Path relate to the religious heirarchy? Is there overlap between the non-Hermetic religious heirarchy and the Criamon?

Fourth, what motivation do the members of the Path have to increase their magical power? My impression is that they don't care about magical power or lab work itself. Power may be produced as a byproduct of living aptly and moving towards harmony. There seems to be a bit of tension between the religious aspects of the Path and Enigmatic Wisdom. Maybe the religious aspect acknowledges that our understanding of the universe is limited and encourages learning more as part of better understanding God's will? I like the idea of senior magi deciding that they know what needs to be done with the rest of their lives, and that they have the ability to do it, and then just hopping off the hamster wheel and not using magic anymore. It fits a whole area of mythic magi that previously had no real place in Ars Magica.

28

I don't see the problem with Certamen, per se, since it's designed not to harm. I can see that their final spell would need to be non-violent.

As badly as other pacificts, I assume. Historically, they just hide out and wait for the time to pass.

No part of the oath requires any individual magus to kill. If it did, Bonisagus couldn't really have been a member, because he lacked big combat specialisations. Wizards' Marching is done by militas of volunteers.

Certamen can be seen as competitive puzzle solving, rather than violence, strictly speaking. Even if you define it as violence, there's space in the Code for magi threatened with Certamen to choose champions, which is the avenue I presume a lot of Bonisagus magi take.

Technically it relates in exactly the same way as every other form of magic. Practically, I expect a lot of the guys on this Path eventually become Muslims.

The sufi are non-hierarchical, effectively.
, or charismatically-hierarchical, in period.

It gives them the tools to do good in the world.

[qutpe] My impression is that they don't care about magical power or lab work itself. Power may be produced as a byproduct of living aptly and moving towards harmony. There seems to be a bit of tension between the religious aspects of the Path and Enigmatic Wisdom.
[/quote]
Oh, yes, there is: these magi, to me, seem more likely than most to come to the conclusion that there's an easier way out of the cycle of time, and its the Divine. In doing so, though, they are positing a solution for the Enigma, and that's still within the bounds of the House.

Yes: I'd go further though and note that Sufi care less about the rewards they will get after they die than in experiencing the love of God in the present. The division between the lived life and the sacred life is not as strong in them as in the typical Western person in period. This paralells with the house's question "What is apt?" What's the right way to live, right now. The sufi empties himself to learn what's right and good, and that's as you note, the opposite of magi studying. I see it basically as the magus making himself a tool in the hand of God. Honing himself for a purpose he will come to understand at higher levels of Enigmatic Wisdom.

All immortals in the new edition, in some real sense, need to be shuffled offstage so that there's something for the PCs to do that the living gods of magic have not done. It's a matter of finding a rationale that works in each case. In this case, there's one Muslim prophet who is immortal, but never really does anything: he just waits around to teach other prophets until he meets Mohammed, and then his task is done. I wanted that sort of feel. Similarly, in the Grial legends, Galahad gets to choose how long he will live for, and he chooses a year. That works for me too...

1 Like
29

How was I supposed to tell? Essentially, I guess this is my problem. Implicit references I just don't get.

30

Implicit? The references are for the most part explicit in the text:

Page 61 notes that the path of the body is based on the alchemichal idea of the macrocosm.

Page 64 notes that the path of Seeming is about being able to see through the distracting details of the world to the Truth underneath. Now, sure I haven't stamped this with the word "Gnostic", because you could, instead see it as the magus being able to piece the illusion of the world, in the Buddhist sense, if you like. There's a lot of Greco-Buddhism in House Criamon (an interesting series of cultural developments which people interested in ancient history may find it amsuing to study.)

The Path of Strife is noted to be "the path of worldly magic...that transgresses the morality of the House." Now, conceptually they were based on Scottish sin eaters, because historically there was no group of Empedocleans who decided to protect their friends by drawing all of the sin into themselves, but it says that they follow Empedoclean ideas, just in a deeply self sacrificng way.

The Path of Walking Backward p 70, is labelled as being based on Sufi, but differing in that it is a complete submission to the Harmonic Force, rather than Allah.

The members of the Path of the Mirror join a genius locus. That, mechanically, is Hermetic acension.

31

Let's say I need very explicit references, I don't see the point in calling the Path of X other than gnosticism, for example, if it is gnosticism. Understanding what gnosticism is, is already an issue for the humble gamer I am.

32

...well if I say "This is just for Gnostics", I'm then saying that if you want to play a Greco-Buddhist, for example, or an Archimedian mystic, that you aren't welcome because I've defined narrowly. If I instead say "Basically all groups under the banner that the world is an illusion are over here...wave your falg guys." I don't preclude people doing similarish sorts of things in different ways, so you get some interesting alternatives for players who like high concept.

It also means I don't need to explain what gnostics are. You seem to be complaining that I didn't use real world groups, then when I point out that I did, you seem to say that real world goups are too complicated to use without more description. Given that there's a firm barrier to how much can be included in a chapter, there's a need to strike a balance between fluff and crunch, and Criamon's got enough fluff in it. It was written in response to TMRE, which has all the fluff you could want for a lot of the groups you'll find in Criamon, so there was no need to do the lot again.

Now, you might argue that, say, Inscription on the Soul should have been in the Criamon chapter rather than a generic mystery in TMRE...and I'd see your point, really, and in paralell I can see that there are other ways of slicing up the information in the two books which, given the inverted publishing schedule, would have made HoH:MC seem less incomplete. That being said, I hope that once you have a bit of a chnce to digest and play with TMRE, and you have fooled with the mechanics a bit, you'll then get a chance to look at HoH:MC again, and find it less impenetrable.

The whole design of HoH:MC assumes that the book will stand on its own, so you get the mechanics chapter and all that, but in terms of colour text, I do feel that the authors, me in particular, have sort of assumed that we don't need to spell out what a mystery is, a cult is, an initation is, because they would be part of what the audience naturally bought to reading the new material.

For example, when I say "In Criamon they have guides instead of mystogogues because they are non-hierarchical and think that the young will teach the old" I'm speaking gibberish to someone who hasn't really had a chance to play with the mystery cult ideas before. What do I mean by "mystagogue" or "hierarchy" here? That's an entirely fair criticism. I hope the problem will be less severe once TMRE is widely available.

2 Likes
33

I hope so. Unless TMRE is worded the same. 8)

34

TMRE has a GLOSSARY ! :open_mouth: :open_mouth: So all the strange words can be explained in one place (assuming people don't just flip past that page & never read it...)
You need some of these words, or otherwise you make the text impenetrable - and waste the book's word count - by repeating phrases everywhere.

The TMRE "fluff" - an excellent rendition by CJ - tries to explain why Mysteries come about and their context in magical society & history, and to describe a number of sample Cults, while suggesting that you will usually find neither all of these, nor only these, in any real Saga. TMRE tries to be generic enough to use as a design template, while detailed enough to pick up parts and run. (We hope to inspire people to include at least a couple of home-grown Cults in each saga that uses TMRE, to maintain surprise & secrecy!)

HoH:MC starts from the premise that four of the well defined 12 Houses of the Order are run and organized as Mystery Cults - the largest 4 Cults in the Order. (Or sometimes appearing more like fragmented clouds...)
HoH:MC was intended to come afterwards, and some of its design has been said by its authors to be a deliberate contrast tot he style of TMRE. That rather fell flat on its face without TMRE to contrast with... Sigh!

I think the Crimon chapter might have been very differently recieved if instead of people reading it alone and saying
"Ow! - this ties down amd constrains magi to a wacky philosophy",
they'd read TMRE first and then said
"Wow! First we saw what you could do when magi were driven by power & secrecy (alone); now we see what happens when they have a philosophy to drive & unite them!"

35

The Criamon chapter has a glossary too...which may be a sign I was reaching a bit, in terms of what I expoected from the reader.

36

Maybe - but it's also the most interesting once you read it a few times. I'm particularly interested in how TMRE (specifically Inscription Upon the Soul etcs) complements the Criamon of HoH:MC.

I also like the way you can still incorporate 4th ed Criamon ideas if needed.

BTW, Empedocles (and some early Greek magical philosophers) can be considered as a sort of proto-shaman in a way (cf. Magic and Wihcraft in Europe: Greede and Rome by Bengt Ankarloo). Do you think "shamanic" Criamon would fit into the current concept - they seem to approximate the Path of Seeming in many ways.

Regards,

Jarkman

37

HoH:MC uses TMRE but not the reverse, so you will find that Inscription On The Soul is aimed at all Magi, and not very Criamon, though some Criamon might use it anyway.

IotS might more properly by named "Spirit Talisman" and lets you enchant your own spirit/body as a your Talisman, and then (in a manner similar to Great Talisman) incorporate further "items" into the Talisman to get more S&M bonuses.
This means blending gems & metals, animal bones, and such, into your body (hic!) - but hey, it's all for Greater Magical Power...

38

If you mean Shamanic in the sense of one who dwells outside the society and enters it to bring it back into balance, then yes, Empedocles did this quite a bit. Although by that definition the Lone Ranger is a shaman...

The local shamans in the area where the Cave of the Twisting Shadows is found used the fly argic as an haluncinogen. It's a red capped mushroom with white spots. The name for it in Latin is Muscaria, which is the current Primus's name, because she's descended from that group.

1 Like
39

"Master, why do you have chicken feet sticking out of your shoulder?" :stuck_out_tongue:

40

Well, I enjoyed Criamon. It was certainly the most creative of the Mystery Cults. I mean, everyone complains about the Eternal Recurrence, but nobody ever does anything about it... until now.

Now, if someone could just work Stoicism into Flambeau, we'd be all set.

Epictetus, as interpreted by Flambeau:

"Some things are up to us and some are not up to us. Our opinions are up to us, and our impulses, desires, aversions-in short, whatever is our own doing. Our bodies are not up to us, nor are our possessions, our reputations, our public offices, or whether we are the target of a Pilum of Fire."

To the administrator of the Cold Iron Vexillation who was the Epicurean. "Your doctrines are bad, man! Subversive to the State, destructive to the family, unbecoming to women! Dismiss these doctrines, man! Ah, to heck with it." (casts Pilum of Fire)

But what says Zeus? "Epictetus, if it were possible, I would have made both your little body and your little property free and not exposed to hindrance... And since I was not able to do for you what I have mentioned, I have given you a small portion of us, this faculty of casting Pilum of Fire."

Are these the only works of providence in us? ... Ought we not when we are digging and ploughing and eating to sing this hymn to God? "Great is God... who has given us hands, the power of swallowing, a stomach, imperceptible growth, and the power of casting Pilum of Fire."

Edit - don't mind me

1 Like