Item: Bucket of Transmogrification

Maybe you could do that with a double effect item? One to put the curse + a Sun duration ReVi effect to supress the effect/put it on hold? So at the next surnrise or sunset everybody turns to pig? A Geas duration could help, thpough, in case you want to make a breakthough or something.

Xavi

Could you attach an environmental trigger: sunrise/sundown to it somehow? This would make the delay be until the next sunrise or sundown. For example, a Momentary InCo effect that triggers at sunrise/sundown and itself triggers the MuCo(An) effect.

Chris

Hmm...so, basically, a Level 30 modified Suppressing the Wizard's Handiwork with Sun duration, so that the ReVi expires at sunrise or sundown. And since the Curse of Circe is, in this case, a Moon duration, when the sun goes down, everybody becomes a pig. I like that.

As long as there's a way for it to work on a spell that hasn't been cast yet, or to be cast simultaneously. The whole flickering spell thing has me nervous.

Sould work, with linked triggers

I don't immediately see a reason why the effect couldn't simply be designed to sloooowwwwly transform the target into a pig.
Ignore enchantments for a moment, let's just imagine we're inventing spells. The existing Curse of Circe turns a human into a pig immediately. But couldn't someone else design a similar spell that slowly turned them into a pig over the course of a day (assuming it had at least Sun duration), without contradicting the existing guidelines?

Okay, let's see if we can get this bad boy stated out.

The item itself is a base metal (tin, steel, iron, whatever) bucket. Base 5 points for "base metal" and x3 for medium, for 15 pawns of vis to open.

First effect: "The Pigs of War"
MuCo(An) 30. This effect is based on Curse of Circe. Base 10, R: Touch (+1), D: Moon (+3), T: Individual. There may also be a +1 Size Modifier (which would affect Giants or Giant-blood up to Size +4...just in case), but that's an "only if we have room" type of thing. Enchantment modifiers would be 50 uses a day (+6), for a final Enchantment Level of 36, which costs 4 pawns of vis.

Second effect: "Wait for it...wait for it..."
ReVi 35. Based on Suppressing the Wizard's Handiwork. General-level with a Base of 20, R: Touch (+1), D: Sun (+2), T: Individual. Suppresses the effects of "The Pigs of War" until sunrise/sundown, at which time the ReVi ends and the MuCo takes full curly-tailed effect. Enchantment modifiers would be 50 uses a day (+6), Linked Trigger (goes off when "The Pigs of War" is cast", +3), for a final Enchantment Level of 44, and 5 pawns of vis.

How's that look?

The thing that confuses me is the item. Based on those spells it looks like the bucket must touch a person to turn that person into a pig. So drinking water that was in it is irrelevant if you're not the one removing the water from it. I'd originally thought you'd wanted it based on drinking water that had been in it as opposed to essentially serving the water.

Chris

Hmm...

What about we make the 2 effects go like this...

  1. You drink water dropped from the bucket

  2. SOMETIMES I SEE PIGS. InCo(Aq) 2 uses per day. Detects anyone within range (sight?) that drank from the bucket during the last Sun duration.

  3. HOINKY TONKY MEN. Transforms anyone detected by the previous effect into a pig. MuCo(An) as usual. Sight range works well here as well.

Could work as well.

The touch range of the original effect is enough if the guy was in touch range when the spell was cast. That is around a metre from the bucket, he does not need to physically touch it IIRC.

Cheers,
Xavi

That's why I came to the Council. I'm not sure if the drinking the water is a cosmetic effect, or how exactly it would work...or even if it would work.

If it were something like a cup and you wanted the trigger to be drinking from the cup, then I think you're fine with a cosmetic effect. But if the contents of the cup were poured into another cup, it wouldn't activate anything even if later imbibed.

Along a similar line with what Xavi wrote, you might use the water as an indicator in another way. Removing water (or wine, etc.) from the bucket triggers an InAq effect with R: Touch and D: Concentration (item maintains) to track the water. Make sure this has plenty of uses. This is how the targets are marked. Then you could have a 2/day MuCo(An) effect with an environmental (sunrise/sunset) trigger and T: Group (probably with an extra magnitude to make it handle 100 individuals) that targets those identified by the InAq effect. Choose a limit to the range.

Another idea might be to skip the Intellego part. Do a Cr(Re)Vi D: Concentration (item maintains) effect with lots of uses to essentially create an intangible tunnel to water that is removed. Then you do the same MuCo(An) effect described above (but at R: Touch) through the tunnels that now lead to those who imbibed the liquid. The Vim effect would be higher level than the InVi earlier, but the Muto effect would be lowered due to R: Touch. I'm not positive this intangible tunnel idea is valid, though.

Chris

The intangible tunnel idea has the strength of allowing the people that is out of sight to be transformed as well. I like it! The D:concentration for the Intellego effect also allows for that, I would say. Nice ones callen :slight_smile:

Xavi

...
This is EXACTLY what I suggested you over in bibracte... (T-T)

The Fixer, poor lonesome misunderstood gamer :laughing:

If the tunnel is to the water, any spell cast through it could only affect the water, just as, if you've got a tunnel to a magus, you can't transform his shield grog into a pig, even if the 2 are touching, nor can you cast a PeTe spell at the room he's in.

I feel like you misunderstood me a little. This isn't Opening the Intangible Tunnel, which is ReVi. I said it is like that for clarity of purpose. I'm trying to create a link to a spot marked by the water. Creo for the creation and Rego to allow it to move. I'm not claiming it's necessarily valid, but just because a related spell would not work doesn't necessarily imply this would not. Also, is the water now part of the person?

Chris

Think of the act of drinking from the bucket as the trigger for the effect, which IMO would be perfectly valid.

I agree with this. Simply state that the target gets transformed the next time they sleep, or that the changes takes a few hours, or whatever. I would rule that this adds 1 magnitude for complexity. No need for a delaying effect, IMHO.

This way, you can keep this a Lesser enchanted item.

Yes, there is the limit that if the water is simply poured out into another container the effect won't trigger. On the other hand, you can always widen the trigger to "removing water from the bucket, including by drinking it directly from the bucket". Since the range is Touch, the person doing it would be affected.

The question is, how do you see the effect working? Is the "target drinking the water" important? Because that part sounds like tethered magic (if I remember the name correctly) and is certainly more difficult to achieve by straight hermetic magic. There are work-arounds (like the one suggested by callen), but these are complicated to implement.

If, however, getting the effect to work though the water is not important, then simply using the act of drinking/pouring water out to be the trigger would be sufficient. I like the KISS approach to magic. :wink:

I agree with Arthur (not surprising since he's agreeing with me! :slight_smile: ) about the validity of these mechanics.
I think(?) the designer's worry is that there might only be a few people who actually ever touch the bucket, whereas he'd prefer everyone who received water from the bucket to bring home the bacon.

That is correct. Even with the pun that was so horrible that I wish I'd thought of it first.

So, basically, you want an item that imbues the water with the power to transform people into pigs.

Doesn't that sound a little bit like an enchanted item that creates a charged item (in liquid form) to affect a target later on? Am I the only one who gets a little uncomfortable with that?

I know the intent is not munchkinism and is in sync with the maga's concept (I follow the Bibracte saga in my spare time), but I would be very careful of how this could set a precedent in the "enchanted item creates charged items" direction. Just IMHO.

There are other ways to get multiple people to drink from the same recipient -- some kind of large cup used during feast, that gets passed around to celebrate a victory. With a delayed effect, that could work just fine. Particularly if you add a Mentem effect that makes people (and possibly only certain kind of them, like warriors or murderers) want to drink from it. :smiling_imp:

EDIT: I would note that this does not mean I would be totally opposed to the multi-effect approach proposed; only that it should be darn hard and expensive time- and vis-wise. This is stretching hermetic magic quite a bit, and should probably be more a matter of original research than straight combination of effects.

That is an interesting idea ... maybe a fountain or something, with a constant CrMe effect that makes nearby people want to drink or wash directly from the fountain. Or perhaps better yet, a CrMe spell cast on a Circle surrounding the fountain. (No reason a well wouldn't work too - just seems a little less reasonable for lots of people to drink directly from the bucket - but hey, that's what Creo Mentem is for!) Just for fun, add another spell that provides a compulsion to tell other people how deliciously refreshing the water is.... :smiling_imp:

I agree with gerg about the viability of the slow transformation; I would not even add a magnitude for complexity.
One way to link the effect to the water is to create an effect that destroys all water that is poured out of the bucket into another container -- forcing everyone to drink directly from the bucket.

Are you going to drink from a bucket that does that?