Item effect

Okay, be easy on this one... :blush: .

We looked at this one as an enchantment in an item, and everyone went along approved it, but I wanted to see what everyone else thought...

"Twisted Corpus"
Muto Vim
R: Voice D:Mom T: Ind
Base: (60) +2 Voice

Changes a Corpus spell into an Animal spell

Uses Guideline: Totally change a spell of less than half the (level+1) of the Vim spell. This may change the Technique, Form, or both of the target spell, and needs no requisites for those arts.....ETC Page 159

(Yes the spell is MUTO Vim in an item..Consummate Talisman.)

The question is the level...
Would everyone agree that the spell level over 50 does not make this spell a Ritual?

Well the answer to your question, IMO, requires more information. What exactly is this MuVi effect intended to be used for (i.e. what particular effect also resident within the device is it intended to affect)?

Is the reason you have made such a high magnitude effect simply in order for it to be able to affect one or more other effects of up to 7th magnitude?

An effect of over level 50 is a ritual. Yes.

He's using consumate Tailisman Mystery, so his talisman CAN affect his spells (which is nifty and I personally think should be in there by default).

Yes, MuVi needs a rewrite. One problem is that you always have to pay double for duration (levels to affect the target's increased level due to duration, plus a duration to match the targeted effect). Thus levels get really really big really quick, even for marginal payoff. As you didn't spend any levels on duration, this spell would further only affect instant spells.

Actually, if you add a Cr requisite, there's no specificity on the limit of how many magnitudes of power that can be added--it's another reason the rules need adjustment. I recommend a power boost spell that adds MUCH to the magnitude to a lower level spell, or a group adjustment effect; I've found these both quite useful.

Actually an invested effect is neither ritual nor formulaic, spells are. Effects mimic spells and thus are limited for the most part to only those achievable by formulaic spells, with the exception that effects CAN mimic ritual spells which are only so because of their level, not because of Duration or Target or Powerful effect.

As for your comment on the Cr requisite. the MuVi guidelines specifically state that no requisite is needed to affect the effect being targetted.

This is why I think in order to really answer the OPs question properly it would help to know the specifics of what he is trying to achieve, including what the particulars are of the Corpus spell he intends to Muto with this second effect.

Thanks for the thoughts...

Intended use: Converting one Corpus spell into one Animal spell.

Not so sure about that....
"Most Muto Vim spells last as long as the spell they have altered, with a nominal duration of momentary"
IE: Once its cast, it doesn't change back...

Counter...

The spell doesn't last long, has a target of one spell, and only changes one aspect of spell that is being cast...

Not sure about that either...

Which seems to be saying that if you want to go from a 10th magnitude spell to a 30th, then you CAN'T use Muto...you must use Creo or Perdo.

Urien all you did with your response was state the same thing (to me anyways) that you originally stated above. I KNOW that it intends to alter a Corpus spell into an Animal spell, but WHAT Corpus spell and what are the specifics of that spell??

..cross post there...
What spell specifically is not important. This spell would change ANY Corpus spell into a similar Animal spell...
Cripple a person, cripple an animal
Kill a person, kill an animal (though this one is too low for that)
Bind a person, Bind an animal

etc

Thats what spell it works on. What you are asking is like, "What spell are you going to cast 'Wizards Communion' on". I can't answer that until I run into the situation that requires me to do so...

That seems fine to me.

If the effect is going to be enchanted in a talisman using the mystery consummate talisman, you could give it a touch range only, unless you want to affect spell cast by others. Anyway, in this case, as the level is over 50 not because of range, duration, target or major effect, it can be enchanted in an object as any formulaic spell. To me, this is essentially what makes consummate talisman a very interesting mystery.

One doesnt need a Consummate Talisman to be able to invest an effect over level 50. That rule, which you cite in your last sentence, holds true for any Invested item (albeit not charged items unless the magus has an outrageously high lab total).

U - your analogy to Wizard's Communion is right on the money - the spell either does what it says it does, or it isn't allowed at all. No "well, it all depends...", as far as the rules read. (something for wise SG's to consider before approving such!) :wink:

Also, I'll toss out that a SG ~may~ want to consider allowing such a MuVi spell to not be bound by the "Level > 50 = Ritual" rule - it seems counter-intuitive that a spell that affects a level 30, non-ritual spell, must itself be a Ritual, but that's purely up to personal choice. The whole idea is flexibility, after all.

Agreed. The whole point was that I keep seeing/hearing that Vim spells are REALLY powerful...but I don't see anyone using them (other than a few here and there). This spell kind of drives home the point that I could have two Forms with decent scores, Vim and (something). With spells like this, I don't need to have large casting scores in say animal...I can convert the Corpus spell into animal (or with another Vim spell) into Another form.
As for the Range I stated, Mortim, you are right on the money. With Voice, I can also affect my Sodales' spells in a pinch. This of course helps everyone...
As for the Muto effect...I like the whole Idea. As a Verditius, this is something Verdi should do...after all, if you are going to make an item, why not make it ROCK!
:smiley:

You gotta check the errata =)

atlas-games.com/arm5/arm5errata.php#AG0205-1

It means that duration usually match the spell targetted (or the spells may not work). The errata is pretty explicit.

On the level 50 issue... I mean, that's a SG call. I know how mine would rule. =)

Well, the word "requires" is there... implying requitrement. Certainly, Perdo and Creo alone aren't enough--look at their guidelines. Thus I'd say Mu(Cr)Vi. Is it clear? No. The rules in the section need a good flossing in some places, and a rewrite in others. There are several bits of errata there you should check up on.

I'd actually let it "change a spell of ANY form to an Animal equivalent," personally. I get your intent, but I'd tighten up that lingo. And the duration thing may hose your hopes anyways (and I think it's bunk, personally, as you gotta pay for Duration twice). I've been playing a MuVi specialist for over a year now so I've read the section with extreme thoroughness, and there are a number of little problems and a few big ones.

I go with the idea that "once a spell is cast, it can't be changed..."...it goes something like that anyway...
So once you change a spell, it doesn't change back...So yeah, bunk.
Point taken though...

Well that could be read another way, as to say "once a spell is cast you cannot change it with the MuVi spell you wish to target it with". That does not preclude a spell, which has been changed as it is being cast, reverting back to its original TeFo because the Duration of the MuVi spell did not match the Duration of its Target.

THat's what we do, but sometimes it doesn't work nicely, so we just have it fail.

I will say as an aside, I definetly approve of your rules change from a balance perspective.

From that perspective, Half (level+1), already requires a LOT, for less return. You also have to make the spell to convert from one Form to another...so you would need multiple copies of this spell for multiple functions...
Using this spell (as is), Would yield results as follows (assume it works on Rituals-hand wave):
To Change:
Bind Wound (L:10) in to Bind animal, requires a level 15 M/V spell.
Gentle touch of the Purified Body(L20) to Purified Animal: Level 35 M/V
Severed Limb made whole (25), to Animal limb: Level 45
Incantation of the Body made whole (40) to Animal: Level 75

To EACH of these you need to add +1 for Touch, or +2 Voice.
If all these spells were not mom duration (one isn't), then you would need to bump each up to Sun, would be +2 more....
For final levels of :
35
55
65
95
Seems kind of excessive to have to cast a Level 40 spell and a Level 95 spell to get a Level 40 effect....
(extreme of course)
All that just to Heal my Familiar? Whats the point of Muto Vim then? With (Muto) Vim having a reputation as being powerful, you would expect it to be more accessible. Any Form is powerful if you are casting a level 95 effect...
Consider as well, if you were to make this a Ritual to cover Rituals, to heal my familiar, would cost me 27 pawns of Vis....
(ducks) Sure you could say.."Why not just learn the Animal version?". I could do that, but then, Whats the point of Muto Vim?
:slight_smile: