Thank you for sharing this information with us. Hopefully, we'll now be warned and remember.
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To help with that, what I mean by "long form post is my normal style".
It tends to include rather verbose parts (me thinking in text), lots of examples based both on books and actual play (this plus this from that book; something my magus/covenant made), and will include a few random sidebars (which I try to stick in bubbles).
I also reread my post several times after making them because I always seem to find errors I made on things like misspelling one word. So they will often have an edit or two which fixes a spelling or adds a point at the bottom I wanted to include but missed. I add them to the bottom with "Edit:" rather than making a new post.
This example is of course exaggerated and if it is a very simple answer needed I will restrain myself (mostly). However if you compare this to my post towards the end of the thread leading up to me getting very snappy the change is clearer.
Edit: I actually wrote witch instead of which. I didn't actually mean to make such an error and have to fix it with an edit.
Now calm, let me see if I can have a go at coming up with something. Let us try doing away with awakening an object and communicating with it, or rather change it to interacting with a spell/enchanted effect.
Say the MuFo(Me) effect does not actually awaken a mind, but instead changes the object so as to allow easier and more comprehensive information to be gained from things that happened to/around said object. You could even be able to include some sort of memory, though not of the human kind. Something more in line with writing, done through minor changes that InFo spells can get information from. This would make the object just the subject the effect works on, along with being the receptacle of any "Writing".
In effect a book, though of a completely different type from what most consider a book. That might actually make an interesting effect of InFo spells to get information from the object, since then you would have the things that spell could normally read or a mental book you could read that would only have things like the varies versions of the commands, how many times different commands were given and roughly when, the activators for Linked Triggers, etc. Access to each might or might not require different spells.
You could then design an InFo effect to get information from it. A Mu Requisite would be required for the ability to add data to it, though if it is +0 or +1 Mags would depend on how well objects pick up information that can be read by InFo effects. Similarly to RAW spells/effects that read books aloud for blind Magi or animate a pen to write down spoken words. A Me requisite might or might not be required to convert spoken words into data, since we already have several RAW effects that obey commands without it such as the Tireless Servant. I would think you would want to add it to increase the range of commands understood.
Combing all of that into one effect would be a Mu(In)Fo(Me) or In(Mu)Fo(Me) effect so far.
Having it serve as the activator of Linked Triggers for other Effects enchanted into the object should then be possible. How it would have to be used varies in how effective the part that converts speech to data/commands was. Is it completely without any range of inputs to a single output or not? In other words, when tweaking the Effect that provides light would the command always have to be "Google Lights at" and the brightness (off, dim, candle, torch, sunlight) or would some degree of variation be allowed since it is a speech to data effect rather than just a command word? I would think without the Me Requisite it would be the former, while with it than it would be to some degree the later. Would adding +1 Mag of complexity allow for even greater range of commands to get the same result, in effect by making multiple possible commands/variations of commands that serve as an activator?
You still run into the issue of needing "senses" to activate an effect like the "Fire Purge", which needs someway to know there is a fire to activate. Could you merge this into the overall control effect by adding an Ig Requisite or would you need to setup a completely separate InIg effect to activate its Linked Trigger? If you would have to create a completely separate effect, why?
If we could work through all that, the effect would end up with lots of Requisites (and possibly some Complexity). It would serve to activate/tweak the other effects enchanted into the object based on spoken commands at a higher level then the simple commands found in things like ReCo Tireless Servant. It might (hopefully) have the rudimentary sensory capability required to do things like activate the Fire Purge if there is a fire. And data that you could normally get from an InFo spell would be more organized and accessible.
Hi guys,
I'm sorry I missed all the messages yesterday.
So, there was some debate about my linked trigger - I didn't specify it properly. As Troy mentioned, it would be a type of InIg or InIm which looks at light in the room.
All of the other effects in the Greater Enchanted Device have the +3 for linked trigger.
I remember that there was one of the supplements that had something similar for detecting lab intruders, but the affected items were all independent.
Honestly, for me, numbers 2 and 3 are almost the same thing. If "light hitting the device" isn't a correct environmental trigger you use the linked trigger instead. But the consensus seems to be that the effects would go off in order of enchantment or at random.
No-one seems to feel that they can all trigger at once.
This does have some noticeable effects for other greater devices - if you have multiple constant effects in a device there will be a hard "limit" of how many can be maintained.
I know that sunrise and sunset last a diameter, which is 20 combat rounds. So realistically you could only have 20 constant effects in a single device for genuine continuous operation.
But due to the levels of devices involved, opening such a device would be a massive project anyway. Much better to have several smaller devices than one powerful one.
As for the awakened devices idea, I need to consider it more carefully. Although the idea of a magus with a companion ring is a little amusing.
I would question about the mind of an item - even an animal mind. A stone, a tree and many more things can be considered "alive". But if I smelt some gold into a ring shape, is it still alive? How about putting a diamond in it - are the diamond and the gold two separate things? Or one? What about when I pull them apart again?
I can see that opening an item as a composite enchanted item magically binds all the parts together. So I can see how the different parts could form a new whole which can then be talked to using InFo magic.
Reading a language is an Ability, which items cannot have, unless crafted as HoH:MC p.128f Automata or awakened with AM p.80 Major Hermetic Virtue: Awaken Device.
I doubt that such an effect exists RAW as standard Hermetic magic.
See for this also TME p..99f Magic Can Neither Read Nor Understand, in particular:
<...> the mind that uttered a word can be interrogated for its meaning with Mentem magic, but written words are just artifices of ink and parchment that have no intrinsic thoughts behind them."
Perhaps you can do your programmable item without having it read words as such? Use some levers to control lighting and heating?
I can't find this spell or effect for 5th edition. But if a 5th edition magus has cast a spell, he might control its effect during its Duration, while he remains within its Range. This then allows a ReTe spell working as a "step and fetch it" or third hand around the magus by bringing, moving, holding and setting down items while the magus concentrates on it. This would also allow him to manipulate levers, sliders and cranks in his lab, of course.
Covenants, page 121. The Tireless Servant, ReCo 40
"This is an automaton of sorts, a skeleton which has been animated and may be controlled quite precisely with a limited set of verbal commands. It can be instructed to hold or fetch objects, and perform simple operations, such
as lifting and stirring, independently."
The reading item does not seem to read out loud after looking at it again, but instead senses the Iconic Species and transmits them directly to the mind.
However your suggestion of using some levers was actually far closer to what I was trying to imply when I said "Writing". I was trying to imply making some small change (like flipping a lever) that is a clearer optimized form of the information you can read from an object with any of the varies InFo spells.
The "Book" part would be an artifact of how the mind of the Magus would interact with the information he pulled from it rather than seeming to have a long slow conversation. It is not actually a "Book" and the Magus is not actually reading, it is just a flavor way of his mind interpreting the optimized part of the data he could pull from the object. Since Magi spend so much time reading books, it seemed an apt model for the "levers" as compared to having a weird conversation in his head.
Does that help explain what I was trying to suggest?
It's definitely an edge case (as you say enchanting an item with 21+ constant effects is a massive undertaking in itself) but for the sake of argument - what if the previous effect "lingers" a little while after sunrise/sunset, so that all the effects remain constant? That's essentially making constant effects a minor exception for gameplay reasons but it makes sense from a certain angle I think.
I see. I did look for a spell or effect with this name: so I didn't find the enchanted device.
You can model your lab then after The Tireless Servant. Whether the "limited set of verbal commands" is levers or specific command words does not matter much indeed.
Make it the operating manual for the lab?
Yes I guess you could call it that. If you actually read it with InFo rather than using voice commands, it would have entries like this on the first "Page".
- Light - On, Brightness - Torch
- Climate - On, Temperature - Cool
- Breeze - On, Pattern - Swirling, Heat - Cool
- Animate Lab Equipment - Off
- Collect Spills - Off
- Fire Protection - On
Later pages might have things like a breakdown of the varies spoken commands that flip those effects. Of course it is all in your head, but the Me Requisite (plus possible level or two of Complexity) would mean how your mind interacts with it would have to be something better than "Sssssssooooooo Rooocccccckkkk... hhhaassss ssooommee ooonneee bbbeeeeenn hhheerrreee??"
Edit: Oh, and don't know why but I know that book and page number for The Tireless Servant off the top of my head. It seems to come up a lot on these boards.
From wikipedia:
Sunrise (or sunup ) is the moment when the upper limb of the Sun appears on the horizon in the morning. The term can also refer to the entire process...
From US Naval Observatory:
the precise definition states that sunrise or sunset is when an observer at sea level with an unimpeded view of the horizon sees the upper disc of the sun to be tangent to (touching) the horizon.
Sunrise may be just a moment or may be 1 diameter. I know someone definitely claimed it is 1 diameter, but the actual standard is just a moment rather than stretched over two minutes. This is why, when you look up sunrise times, you see things like 6:21 rather than 6:21-6:23. But the term could refer to the whole diameter as well, so we cannot be sure the authors meant just that brief moment, though statements like this become quite odd if it is not just a brief moment:
The end of the ritual (the sacrifice) was done half a Diameter after sunrise; thus at least some Diedne were caught without Parma.
Meanwhile, we know an effect and a MuVi affecting it can go off in the same round in the same item due to sunrise. Now maybe MuVi is an exception with its Linked Trigger and being designed to be paired with the other effect as it is.
Personally, I run sunrise with the standard definition and allow it to trigger multiple effects in an item in one round. But should this extend to things outside of Environmental Trigger?
- At the same time. I consider that if an human don't need a skill to detect the trigger, then you don't need an Intellego spell to trigger your object. You can then use an environmental trigger.
- At the same time (see below)
- No need for an Intellego effect to detect light, but still possible. At the same time.
- You do it like Hermanus in his sunken laboratory (cf. Legends of Hermes): A single item detecting light might activate all items in the room (see Herald of Imperative enchantment). Thus, they are activated at the same time. This is very powerful because you only need lesser items.
Point 1 and 4 are the reasons why I wouldn't forbid points 2 and 3 (moreover, imho nothing forbids it in the rules).
The effects I have found in raw that activate an Environmental Trigger with something other than the rough outline in the core book contain that Form (ether as the main or a requite) and the thing must happen within its Target.
For example an effect that extinguishes all fire in a room (PeIg, T: Room), with an Environmental Trigger that activates the effect when a fire is in the room.
The books seem to disagree on this one. For instance, it's trivial for a person watching someone transform into an animal to know they are transforming into an animal; but that takes an Intellego effect, even in a magus's Talisman.
I would certainly accept an Environmental Trigger matching the Form far sooner than I would accept nothing to detect it.
Well knowing and seeing are two different things. If a magus relies on an environmental trigger, I'd allow to deceive the object with an illusion.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong. You'd allow deceiving an object to missing Environmental Triggers, so an illusion could make it not recognize sunrise/sunset? So you could stop many effects from ending with a visual illusion?
In the adventure The Sunken Laboratory of Hermanus (LoH p.95ff) there is indeed a new Rego Vim Level 5 guideline in a box on p.107. This new guideline not only enables Herald of Imperative (p.106 box), but also a very simple Wizard's Mitrailleuse, to write down in two lab texts and spread all over the Order.
The first lab text explains the spell ReVi 20 Salvo! (R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Group), which triggers a group of enchanted devices with the same, fixed trigger (Base 5, +1 Touch, +2 Group).
The second lab text explains the lesser enchantment CrIg 30 Barrel (a brass wand with basalt inlay in its tip for just ArM5 p.140 Arc of Fiery Ribbons 24 times per day, and a trigger matching the one expected by Salvo! above). That lab text requires 3 pawns of Creo and/or Ignem vis per Wand.
Once a maga has enchanted ten such Barrel wands, she can tie them together into a nice bundle, and trigger that bundle with Salvo! once per round 24 times per day.
Real Flambeaus will of course have larger bundles, with infinite uses per day, more damage and Penetration in each Barrel.
For some reason, that bundle of Barrels will soon be called Flambeau MP (for Mitraillieuse Pernicieuse of course) in all sagas that have it.
Do you want that in your saga? Otherwise best keep away from the The Sunken Laboratory of Hermanus: its traps rely heavily on the p.107 guideline.
Yes. Let's take an example: You enchant a floor tile and set an environmental trigger "when someone steps on it". I'd allow a sneaking Tytalus to cast the illusion of a person and make it step on the tile (as long as illusion is also on touch sense) to trigger the trap.
No, it's a special case. For me, sense of time is not based on sight (or touch, or smell, etc.). Because permanent objects underground still work. An object with a environmental trigger based on celestial bodies cannot be deceived. Well, perhaps some breakthrough would allow a spell to deceive an object. But I wouldn't allow it without this breakthrough.
Well, since a moderately powerful magus can invent a group Pilum of Fire and master it for multiple casting and fast cast, I don't see any problem here.
If a player wants to do this, I won't try to prevent. However, I'll ask myself why he wants to do this. This won't help to solve much.
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