Hello all, I have progressed immensely as a magician since I joined these forums, and now am a storyguide for a game that has gone on over a year.
In the below post, I have collected many spells that I have devised along with some assistance from others in the Discord. Let me know what y'all think of these spells, and let this thread open a discussion about further protection spells!
Very cool spells, thank you.
Good uses of perdo (including noting that PeIg doesn't need to increase magnitude to deal with hotter fires whereas ReIg wards do - let me double check that) and muto. I am unsure about the first spell having momentary duration though - yes, it should protect you against ten fires but if cast with a momentary duration surely it can only destroy fires already in existence, rather than fire spells that will be cast soon?
I'll note that even Perdo Ignem does need to increase the magnitude for hotter fires to "destroy a fire." That said, Perdo is not in general only destruction, but also moving something further from its platonic ideal, and due to that verbiage, I believe it should be reasonable to not increase the magnitudes for this particular use of the guidelines. The fire will still burn and catch if the fire normally would, but it will not be hot, and therefore if it is extinguished thereafter (as by ceasing to exist from Momentary Creo expiring) then the warded person will escape unscathed.
As for the Momentary duration, this acts the same way that Treading the Ashen Path does, which uses Momentary Duration and Group Target to permit affecting new targets around the caster after the Duration expires until the Group runs out of targets to affect, and so I applied this same concept to Exploit the Hubris of Flamebeau.
I'd disagree with that interpretation of Treading the Ashen Path. It allows for a continual expansion of the targetted Group, as the plants it targets are those that are along the ten pace wide path you walked. I think a similar spell to quell flames in your path as you walk through a blaze would work, but not an effect that you can cast and forget that'll destroy flames no matter what you do.
Very cool overall.
The first spell is really off, though. (I haven't read through all of them yet.)
Perdo Ignem says
For every five points by which the fire’s damage exceeds +5, add one magnitude to the spell’s level.
So base 4 is enough to extinguish a +5 damage fire, while 5 more magnitudes are needed for it to work on BoAF. Base 10 just isn't enough.
Meanwhile, your use of Group for this PeIg spell doesn't match Group. I get what you're saying about Treading the Ashen Path. This is exactly why I brought it up along with others when we were working on DE. Others were changed, while this was not, as it already has a statement indicating it is a really special spell, which probably means experimentation since it's not noted as being non-Hermetic. Any of those would mean it shouldn't be used as a generally valid example of Group.
Too many spells suffers from creative rules' interpretation, require lenient house rules or would need at least a Major Breakthrough.
One main criticism: spells require a target to be cast upon (or an AC to the target). The only canonical exception to this rule - and it is explicitly mentioned in the rules - are wards.
I didn't want to be involve in the Discord discussion, but since it is posted here, it should have a disclaimer that it is not fully aligned with existing guidelines and rules and would require some breakthrough or house rules.
It is a creative exercise, but it muddles too much to my taste the already complex rule set regarding spells creation and limits of magic.
Well, I appreciate the feedback that Exploit the Hubris of Flambeau is divisive, as it works from the basis of a spell that is itself divisive. I don't think more productive discussion can be had on that spell though as I've already given my reasons (like for the base level not having magnitudes added because it does not destroy the fire, which is the only perdo ignem effect noted to require that if I am not misreading the guidelines), so I would appreciate further feedback focus on other spells.
Which spells are you referring to? The only one I can think of would be Exploit the Hubris of Flambeau, as every other spell affects a Target immediately.
Hold Fast in the Face of Weeping Wounds and Deny the Intabgible Tunnel use the secondary base individual of Vim spells, which allow targeting an object or creature to affect all supernatural effects affecting that object or creature, so their targets are already present at casting. That Prying Eyes Hold No Sway uses Room Target so that has a target that is present as well. I can't think of any other spells which would be subject to this criticism.
You are really pushing the envelope on some of them. I appreciate what you wrote in another thread needs to be considered more than many people do " Formulaic or Ritual spells, on the other hand, can be invented with Ranges, Durations or Targets that are not listed here"
Lets go spell by spell
Exploit the hubris of flambeau - 10 fires is too vague. Can in last for 3 months, a year? I appreciate it is using Treading the Ashen Path as a template, however, as mentioned, Ashen Path could be done as an instant effect and have a similar outcome. This spell could not. When there is a logical duration such as sun or moon, I consider that should be used.
Hold Fast in the Face of Weeping Wounds - Parma doesn't protect the group. To me the group protection needs a +1 fancy modifier.
That Prying Eyes Shall Hold No Sway - No complexity on this one.
Grant Passage to Spells Approved Of - a niche spell, but essential when it meets that niche.
Deny the Intangible Tunnel - Beautiful. Tunnel is such a core wizard wizard war asset, dispelling it is a great option.
I love the spiteful pettiness of the anti-scrying item.
Borrow the Heartbeast’s Stability - an elegant solution to people trying to counter a muto effect. Again, a bit niche, however, a magi will be quite concerned if they stop being a crow while flying, so it is incredibly important in it's niche.
Proteus cloak is another creative solution. Admittedly it can easily be exploited by an enemy if the wearer is indoors.
Hold the Waiting Ward Till Twilight’s Embrace - Another elegant solution. At dawn and dusk, there is a weakness. This solves that.
May no slab mark my grab! Why touch? Anyone targeted will warp. I'd think personal and add +1 size, so even a mountain rockslide will bounce off.
Neither my body nor my spirit you shall touch! Duration Mom? So it needs a 7 vis waiting ward spell for it to be useful. Niche and expensive.
Thanks for looking so thoroughly! I really appreciate the feedback.
The last two spells were not written by me and were a community contribution, so I left them as written, but I'll go blow by blow on the other comments to leave my thoughts.
This is an interesting point. I've always taken it for granted that in Treading the Ashen Path any time you spend standing still simply does nothing to the spell, because it's not "using" any of the remaining target size it has. If you extend that to thinking about when the magus walks where there is no foliage to destroy, like on a large sand dune, I would think to not count that against the distance that would be covered.
In this way I've assumed that it has no effective duration cap either.
You make a good point that it could be done in an instant if you interpret it literally, except that it doesn't ever target a Group that is physically separated from other targets of its type.
I wouldn't be opposed to making this spell have a duration of Sun or Moon or similar, either simply as a restriction on this spell, or if it were to be reinvented with the Merinita Mystery for recasting spells.
The issue with simply giving it a Sun duration however is that for this to then affect fires around the caster as they encounter them, it would need a new Aura dynamic container target, and no longer be limited by only affecting 10 fires.
As for what "10 fires" means, it's simply a Group defined by having come in contact with the caster, using the usual idea of a base individual.
If I were to remake this spell with the feedback I've gotten, I would make it Sun Duration and Special Target, and make it affect all fires that come within 10 paces of the caster, +2 Aura equivalent to Group, +1 for a nonstandard Target.
This spell simply dispells any spell that includes the caster in the Target. It works the same as any other targeted dispel effect does. That said, the Central Rule is important, and if at your table it needs an extra magnitude this is good!
What's the reasoning here? It's a basic application of Room as a dynamic container target.
I want to jump and down on that point ... out of clumsy exuberance, not because I disagree.
I'd like to add the associated "Central Rule"
The Central Rule
The storyguide or troupe may always
intervene and declare that a certain combina-
tion of range, duration, target, and effect war-
rants a higher or lower level than that
described by the guidelines and the system
below.
So adhering exactly to the guidelines and rules doesn't guarantee a spell's validity for any given saga.
The rules are explicitly non-exhaustive. We're expected to apply our own judgement.
Exactly. As I said I'd go spell by spell, I thought missing a spell would be weird (except the waiting ward follow ups as they fit together). It's not complex, quirky or niche like many of the others. It fits the standard rule book without needing to lean on "Formulaic or Ritual spells, on the other hand, can be invented with Ranges, Durations or Targets that are not listed here". So no complexity.
Hmm. Parma is by it's nature weird and does not obey normal rules. This is not protection, it is dispel. Thinking further, I concede the +1 fancy is unnecessary.
You are misreading the guidelines. The first sentence is just referencing destroying fire. This is true regardless of destroying the whole fire or destroying an aspect of it. There is nothing in that first sentence saying destroying an aspect of a fire no longer qualifies as destroying fire.
I've incorporated feedback from people here, and updated Exploiting the Hubris of Flambeau on the blogpost.
First, I have updated it to be level 45, changing the base effect to be "destroy a fire" rather than "destroy one aspect of a fire", and added 5 intensity magnitudes, to ensure it can still affect Ball of Abysmal Flame.
Second, I have added a sidebar detailing an alternate statline for the spell which is not based on Treading the Ashen Path, but instead uses a Diameter Duration, and a custom Aura dynamic container Target with an appropriate +1 magnitude for using a nonstandard target.
I hope this is found to be satisfactory.
I'm enjoying this discussion, thanks. A thought occurred to me:
Changing from human to animal (or vice versa) to confound the form of a spell, if fast casting is successful, prevents spells of the appropriate Form affecting the target. Also alterations in size. Could a Bjornaer do a fast transformation to achieve the same result?
If so, what would affect this transformation? Finnesse with a specialisation in speed of transformation into or out of Heartbeast?
Hey there! So changing from a human to an animal or vice versa actually doesn't confound the Form of most Spells, because the person adopts a new Form but their Essential Nature still retains the old. Bjornaer magi's Heartbeast Ability is actually different though, because Bjornaer actually are both human and animal, so swapping forms won't remove effects already on them, but when they adopt a new Form they cannot be the Target of a spell using the other.
As for how to handle fast transformations, this would likely be handled by default as an Interrupt by Lords of Men, but this likely doesn't do what you want, because Interrupt actions are simply Delayed actions which happen before the triggering action rather than after, which means you must declare on your turn that you will delay your action until your opponent spellcasts, and that you will be using Heartbeast to change forms when they do.
This unfortunately means you cannot decide whether or not to use Heartbeast after you learn which Technique and Form are being used, like you would decide what Fast-Cast Defense to use, and you cannot act normally and then transform at need, instead you must intentionally hold yourself in waiting.
I think this would however be a reasonable thing to add a houserule on.
Yes, Heartbeast is different in important ways, but that "so" is misplaced. We've seen across other spells that a target becoming invalid does not end the effect. So this part is just constant. It's the invalidation of other things that target the current state that is so different.
I'm not looking to cancel any effect already in place. I'd like to use the transformation in size or form to defeat incoming spells. Seems I'll need to look at LoM.
Thanks to both.