Jinn and Summoning the Summoned

I have a (Hermetic) Sahir in the Saga. It is likely that he will begin to summon Jinn he has encountered, which have been summoned and Bargained into service by other (Solomantic) Sahir.

I did not see any rules for this, I thought I saw something saying that a jinn can only have one active bargain at a time, but nothing about summoning already summoned and bargained Jinn.

Note that unlike binding or other controlling measures, Bargaining is only "sort of magical" since it is part of the Jinn's Nature to be bound to agreements... however, the Summoning Total gives a bonus to the bargain roll so it is influenced by magic, sort of.

Anyone else know of any RAW for this incidence? or have suggestions?

Option 1: If in your example the Solomonic Sahir ordered the jinni in question to serve the Hermetic Sahir I don't really see any conflict. IMS the jinn would fulfill its obligation to the best of its ability until the bargains expiry.

Option 2: If, however, the Hermetic Sahir were to attempt to summon away a jinn already in service to another Sahir things become more complicated. While one could conceivably determine what happens using some sort of opposed Sihr roll, I'm going to suggest just prohibitting it instead. My justification for this is that the bargain struck with the first Sahir is magically enforced albeit by the essential nature of the jinn rather than the Sihr power and thus the jinn is incapable of striking a bargain with a second Sahir while the original bargain is still in force.

I agree with option 2. However, that does not prevent the Jinn to pretend that he is negotiating a normal contract with the second sahir. Unless forced to show that he has an already running contract he can cheat, like anybody else. He can even do the assigned role in the second negotiation if he thinks it is worthy and it does not go against his first (real) contract. That can be the case if a water jinn has an agreement to irrigate an orange field and now it is called to perform a service creating rain somewhere else. As far as he tends to the orange groove I see no problem for him going somewhere else and do whatever extra services he wants to perform. he will not be under a compulsion to perform the second agreement, but he still can do it if he wants to.

The sitch described as Option 2 is what I was thinking about.

We are set in Egypt and eventually the Hermetic Sahir is going to try and summon a Solomatic Sahir's Jinn.

However, since my inital post, I reread portions of C&C. It states that when BOUND (to an object) Jinn can be summoned but can not bargain, and are limited in a few other ways. But they can be summoned.

There for it seems that a Sahir can summon a Jinn currently in a bargain with another sorcerer... this opens up all sorts of issues. I might have a house rule that says the Summoning Strength must also be beat to summon the Jinn that is currently in a Bargain with another Sahir...

I will have to think about this. you all see any issues with that?

I have not reread the rules for Jinn, so take this with a grain of salt. (serf's parma)

I would understand Bargain with a capital B. he cannot Bargain and reach an agreement that bind him. However, he can haggle as much as he wants, but you would be dealing with an equal with free will: the agreement you strike will only be kept by the Jinn if he wants to. He can bargain with you and perform for you but if the other Sahir says "no" you can have a problem, and the Jinn will certainly not be able to doublecross the Sahir that has bound him. Opens the door for cheating Jinn and cheating Sahiors that send you a Jinn that says to you that he is free but is not so you negotiate with him only to get your happy and nice bargain broken later when the other sahir find it oportune. Nasty and nice from a story point of view.

Clear as mud? I thought so :slight_smile:


Xavi, Indeed.

Some issues with your statement.

Sahirs can:

  1. Summon a Spirit: This summons the spirit to your location. depending on the method, the power of the summoning may provide a later bonus to "spells" or bargain rolls uses through/toward the spirit. A Summoning doe snot provide control or protection (note infernal summoning is different).

  2. Bargain with a Spirit: This is a mix of the summoning "spell" [actually a Supernatural Ability not a spell... but that is the language used] and the nature of Jinn (see below). The Jinn CAN bargain, but do not have to. Bargains are esoteric in nature, this is actually a test of wills and manipulation, empowered somewhat [and somehow] by the strength of the summoning. only Jinn can be bargained with like this. A successful bargaining means the Jinn has to do what it agreed to... This can be of varying duration: single short task through long term help, and may be of varying specificity: a specific task (once or many times) through "anything I say." after the terms are set (and they seem to implicitly include "do not harm me" the Sahir has no other powers or control over the Jinn. a Sahir may have a number of Jinn equal to Leadership+1 "Controlled."

  3. Bind a spirit: This shoves the spirit into the object , this is typically used as an enchanting method. The Spirit has not bargained for this, and is stuck in the object (though I think they can appear to people holding or around the object. This doe snot count against the summoners "Jinn Controlled" limit. Jinn dont like being bound, and Binding works with all manner of spirits.

Jinn Are susceptible to this Bargaining due to a required Flaw which makes Bargain's unbreakable to them. They also are typically uninterested in fighting this control (except the Binding above). They seem to willingly enter into bargains even agaist sahir who are so powerful that the Jinn will agree to do anything the Sahir says for a year. they will do this over and over again without resisting as long as the Sahir is not abusive. Jinn be crazy.

Given all this: even is a Sahir explicitly included a "don't be running off to other summons" clause, I don't think the Jinn have a choice, the summons is magically forced. However, the Bargaining might be weird since I dont think they could agree to any bargain that infinged upon another one they were already in... this is where it gets murky.