Korvin - Original Research thread

Korvin is working on research to make better Longevity Rituals. Rather than have a +1 to the aging roll every 10 years he wants to make it every 15 years. JL has ruled this to be a Major breakthrough ( at least 45 points) I'm struggling to come up with spells to research to study this. So far I have Cheating the reaper (CrCo 30) and a version of Bane of the decrepit body (PrCo 20). I can also do at least one InCo to study the effects of aging on a body and another to do the effects of an aging crisis.

I thought I might be able to experiment with LR to also gain BP but that is not really covered in the rules. Even though most of the LR is like a spell it is different for research.

Any thoughts on allowing BP to be gained for experimenting on LR?

So far he has made a discovery on Cheating the reaper (CrCo 30) and gained 6 BP. ( and 1 warping point).

LR experimentation...but it's risky to the recipient, and stabilizing a discovery is problematic (and vis intensive).

Spells which cure diseases, spells which aid in regenerating the body, such as the Gentle Caress of Aesclepius.

Only semi-off-topic, but Korvin might want to read Methuselah's tractatus that we got as Tropeas before we have to give them back. He was all about aging and aging rolls and longevity stuff...or so he would have you believe :smiley:

I don't quite understand this. Is this in regards to LRs for non gifted individuals? I thought you hade a +1 (penalty that is) on your aging rolls for every decade or fraction of a decade you lived, and then a -1 (bonus) per 5 points or fraction of 5 points in a LR lab total.

I think he's saying that, instead of +1 per decade or part thereof, he wants it +1 per 15 years or part thereof. For example, for Fiona, who currently has a +6 to her Aging Roll for being [size=35]53[/size], she would instead take a +4.

Interesting way of going about that. That make sense now.

I thought the expenditure of vis was not in the making of the Ritual but the use of the ritual

All read in my 5 year span. They were high on my list.

That's my understanding. Unless he's saying that you invent a ritual, perform a ritual to see how it works (or if it works), spend another season refining the discovery (and inventing a new ritual in the process), then performing the new and improved ritual (more vis!), and so on.

How does one know if the LR is successful unless it is completed? If a discovery is made, and since an LR is designed for a specific person, how does one stabilize the discovery? Or how does one know that the stabilization is successful without completing the ritual? The LR is on the border between a spell and an item, the item says that any vis used in the creation is invested in the device. Anyone have a better way of doing this?

Part of what makes this harder to figure out is the fact that you don't have to reinvent the Longevity Ritual when it fails. The description says that it "takes one season to develop and perform", but if the ritual fails for whatever reason (i.e. aging crisis), you can simply repeat the focus with a new investment of vis (based on the current age) but "no significant investment of time." Which indicates to me that performing the ritual itself takes as long, say, as a Ritual Spell. For Fiona, for example, it would take six hours to repeat the ritual/focus and cost age/5 pawns of vis.

Which, to me, raises the question of: why is it necessary to perform the ritual right away? It seems reasonable that you could invent the ritual, wait a few seasons, and then perform the ritual at the last moment before you have to start making aging rolls. Granted, it's probably not going to happen very often (only in cases where the only time the magus could get help inventing it was before it was due, or where the magus didn't have the vis to perform it at the time).

I would be inclined to say that it takes a season to invent the ritual, but that it can be performed at any time after that, including at the end of the season of invention.

On one hand
How does anyone know a LR is successful unless it is cast but they do. There is a finality to spending the season making the LR. It is very tricky because the LR is not well defined because it si more of a story point than a logical part of the rules. Experimenting runs the risk of a flawed LR or a wasted season. It is not one to be taken lightly.

Now on page 17 of MoH it states :

The problem is that Aurulentus' research was on LR for him and his wife but it does suggest that LR can be used for breakthough points. Now how many BPs is another matter since they are based on the magnitude of the spell and not the lab total.

On the other hand:
I do not think the rules lend themselves to doing research with LR. If I experiment with a LR is is a simple die roll rather than a stress(ArM5 108). It does not fit into the set up for research as given in HoH:TL for many of the reasons that JL has listed.

I think I will have to come up with many spells like MoH Aurulentus

Widening the River Styx MoH pg 20, And some InCo spells.

When an LR fails, more than likely, death is inevitable or a new one needs to be recreated.

Sure, one can wait to complete the ritual until the last minute, I don't have a problem with that, but integrating it into Original Research, how does the researcher know his discovery is legit? Wouldn't he need to get the magus back in the lab and then work on stabilizing the discovery? Say we handwave the second ritual created needing to be performed, and so therefore no vis spent, I think the same conditions need to exist otherwise for stabilizing the research. Also, anyone involved in that stabilization, IMO is subject to the warping effects...

I did point out to V and A that part of the deal is that if I make a discovery that they must return at some point to stabilize the research. So there is a possibility that 1) the LR could fail or be flawed which would waste a season. 2) Korvin makes a discovery and at some point in the furure, that magus would have to spend another season with Korvin so he could stabilize the discovery.

If they do not want to experiment then I would have to think of some other payment.

The experimentation with the LR is the same as experimenting with everything else. A simple Die roll is added to the Lab Total, just like every other experiment. And just like every other experiment a stress roll on the Extraordinary results table is made, but the modifications to the roll are made under the rules for Original research.

lightbulb I'm guessing that the Original Research Rules are in MoH (Magi of Hermes?), and that's what we're talking about using, and not the normal Experimentation Rules in the mrb? Which would explain why none of this is making that much sense. Ima bow out now :smiley:

Original Research in Houses of Hermes: True Lineages, starting on page 26.

There is a magus is MoH that does original research on LR that keep him and his wife fertile. THat is the only example we have to go on for this type of research which is why I refer to him. I want to add up his warping points for that final 15 years on a hunch.

Well, then, this isn't a breakthrough to the LR. This is slowing people's aging, since this penalty occurs whether or not one takes a LR. This would also imply that an LR made by the weakest of apprentices (lab total 05) would still slow by one and a half someone's aging.

A similar, but LR-Related breakthrough would be to have the LR give a bonus of (lab total/3) instead of (lab total/5). That way, you get that same "1,5 times" modifier, but it acts on the LR. So the apprentice's LR above would not be very affected, but Korvin's would be greatly.

Hum... Another (easier) possibility: Give the equivalent of a focus when making LR.

Just my 2 cents, of course.

Doesn't LR slow aging? If that is the case than an improved LR would slow aging even more.

The point is to allow the lowest lab total to gain this benefit as well as the highest. It will allow magi to live longer and help with magi who have difficult LR. It could later be expanded to non-gifted people.