learning Hermetic virtues after apprenticeship

I am trying to find an old thread I thought I started, many years ago.

I think I was looking at the rules in Apprentices, and speculating that if your mage could find a good enough teacher, they might be taught more Hermetic virtues, concievably a 2nd or 3rd Major Hermetic virtue.

Have I been imagining this forum entry?

To learn a hermetic virtue, the best way is to be initiated on a mystery. And this way allows to learn some Major Hermetic (like Mercurian Magic, Hermetic Rune Magic, some Major Focus,...)

But yes, following the book Apprentices, you can teach Hermetic virtue to your apprentice. Just be aware for the difficult :
Need : 21 in one season for a Major Virtue. malus of 9 on the teaching score by Major Hermetic virtue; malus of 3 on the teaching score by Minor Hermetic virtue

For instance, Tethys ex-Tytalus, one of my character. Elementalist (Major hermetic virtue), puissant Aquam, puissant Auram, inventive genius, study bonus (4 minor hermetic virtues)

communication + teaching + 3 + 6 (one-to-one) - 9 (major hermetic virtue) -12 (3*4 hermetic minor virtue) >= 21

If his parens wanted teach her a Major Virtue, his score communication + teaching needs to be up to 33... With a major flaw and good teacher, the score would be reach to 19.

For a Minor virtue, the score would reach to 13... in the best way.

Other case. Sileken ex-Miscellenia, another of my magae. She had only faerie-raised magic as virtue. If her parens would have taught her a second Hermetic virtue :
communication + teaching + 3 + 6 (one-to-one) - 9 (major virtue) > 21

The score communication + teaching must be 21... 16 with good teacher; 7 with good teacher and a major flaw.

So yes, it's possible to teach a second Major Hermetic outside the mystery, with the good conditions. But, it's really complex. A third would take some seasons to do.

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Is there a strict definition of which Virtues count against the study total?

I doubt that "Hermetic Prestige" nor "Mastered Spells" should count.
What about " Affinity with - Magic Theory"?

Hermetic virtues. And really, if you're playing an apprentice season by season, you shouldn't have any virtue that gives extra xp like mastered spells, nor is hermetic prestige something an apprentice should get until very late.

I was wondering if gauntletted magi can learn further Hermetic Virtues in the way of an apprentice

Look at a post from the author of Apprentices:

Apprentices: In my hands... - #66 by Matt_Ryan .

You find there:

I wanted a rule that lets magi teach apprentices, but wouldn’t let magi teach magi. There are other ways for magi to gain new Virtues. In my mind, Virtues should be taught during apprenticeship only.


And here I was thinking the fact we didn't see it happening was primarily social - no maga could stand the indignity of being taught/teaching another magus.

I was hoping to make a peculiar issue at next Tribunal meeting that is not straight forward obvious for my troupe - whether a magus should be Marched for "prostituting" his lab services (though his accusers will try to phrase it in Oath-breaking terms).

I had even started designing Aristide Ostanes of Bonisagus.
Originally apprenticed to a Gifted Folk Witch who dies in the final stages of Opening Aristide's Gift as a Folk Witch, re-apprenticed to a Pralican of Ex Miscellanea who had trouble Opening Aristide's Gift into Hermetic Magic.
Aristide proves to be ridiculously good at Hermetic Magic Theory, and is Boni-snatched early on. At this point he has the Virtues Comprehend Magic, mMF in Exotic Magic, Latent Magical Ability, Great Intelligence, Apt Student, and Affinity with Magic Theory.
During his Bonisagus apprenticeship, his LMA spontaneously converts into Subtle Opening (the suggested breakthrough mentioned on p50 of Hedge Magic), and also learns Puissant Magic Theory and Inventive Genius.

Assuming his Bonisagus parens wanted him primarily as a Lab assistant, I could say he finished apprenticeship spending 70 pts towards Magic Theory.
After Gauntlet, his Ambition leads him to become the most well-rounded Hermetic Mage so to push the boundaries of Hermetic Theory., no matter what indignities he must suffer to do so.

So Int +4, Magic Theory 8 (before specialisation) and Inventive Genius he can offer as a Lab partner, after Gauntlet.
In return he has Apt Student, Subtle Opening, and Comprehend Magic to help him learn.

I guess it is not to be.

There are also research & integration rules; once a magus has successfully 'fully integrated' a breakthrough into Hermetic theory, they can write a Magic Theory Tractus which grants the breakthrough to any who read it, and they can pass the breakthrough on to any apprentice they teach Magic Theory to. It does not seem to be widely done. Of course, I may have misremembered or misunderstood some aspects of this, but (cost of doing the research aside) it really does seem to be that easy.

I think you are understating how difficult this is.

In order to stabilise a breakthrough you essentially have to research it all over again, including gaining all the warping points from doing so. Achieving a breakthrough has immediate personal benefits: you get an awesome new power or virtue that noone else has, but at a steep cost in warping. Integrating the breakthrough requires you to double the cost at the benefit of giving your awesome new power away to everyone for free.

Some people will defintely integrate breakthroughs but many wont.

Warping seems to only come from the (HoH:TL page 28) original research "Seeking the unknown". Each successful experimental 'discovery' needs to be 'stabilized'; enough stabilized discoveries equals a 'breakthrough'. So some observations seem to be in order:
1} all the warping happens before the breakthrough & someone learning the breakthrough after it has been made avoids the onerous process that causes warping;
2} "Seeking the unknown" implies things for which there are no published rules; the sort of things that troupes decide to invent for their own sagas -- existing rules and virtues, especially 'Hermetic' virtues -- should probably be handled under the research rules for Hedge/Ancient/Rival magic where an effect has already been shown to be possible & rules exist to express it.
3} HoH:TL Page 29 'Multiple Laboratory Texts' specifies that duplicating another work towards a particular breakthrough (from their lab texts about their experiments) does not cause warping, only time spent in a laboratory duplicating their work.

All of this applies before HoH:TL page 29 'Hermetic Integration' (a 'major breakthrough' on a previous 'major breakthrough' or existing virtue allows everyone taught to have the virtue for no extra effort). Note the process of 'Hermetic Integration' does not need to be undertaken by the magus who made the original breakthrough -- anyone who has their notes can reach the same breakthrough for only a few seasons work, and may choose to embark on a new round of research to reach full Hermetic Integration.

So sure, Hermetic Integration might be rare -- especially in a society where suspicious magi greedily hoard power and knowledge. But it is not really needed; just access to the original research notes. A covenant with notes for such a breakthrough in the library could set the price of being able to study those notes at a single laboratory text describing a stabilized discovery on that (or another, specified) breakthrough. This means anyone who wants the breakthrough must have 'skin in the game', and potentially offers a way for the covenant to accumulate (some higher level, some lower, some with wildly successful experimentation, etc) notes on a variety of different breakthroughs.

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I will need to review TMRE.
Would there be lab texts floating around for the integration of (now common) Hermetic Virtues, such as Flexible Formulaic Magic, or Enduring Magics, et al?

That my nascent NPC could research to develop their own Hermetic Virtues.

Whether there would be such lab texts in general circulation is something for your troupe to decide; but the general thought seems to be that notes on breakthroughs are not usually widely shared -- the magus who made the breakthrough may be inclined to use it as an advantage, and that erodes as more people acquire it. Magi in the same 'lineage' (apprentices from a single magus), or who are on friendly terms, and/or in the same covenant might be more inclined to share -- especially if any of those actively encouraged sharing notes.

That being said, they could be a fine bargaining chip in a trade arrangement. Breakthroughs which have undergone full 'Hermetic Integration' are usually Tracti on Magic Theory; it is unlikely that such a book would accidentally be traded without accounting for the extra value of the breakthrough, but weird things can happen in stories.

Some magi are more inclined to share -- from Magi of Hermes, Aurulentus of Jerbiton is positively an active evangelist for his breakthrough.

While they might be disinclined to share during the research phase, any Bonisagus Magi is required to share their results after it is complete. Something to keep in mind is that the Hermetic Magic of the 13th century is very different from the Hermetic Magic of the 8th century. While there are few of the changes expressly talked about in the books, the ones we do find are pretty large. Vim for example did not originally affect any Realm but Magic.

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If using someone else's research notes, you'll need to spend time translating them (which is a minor nuisance if you're only looking at one researcher's lab notes, and a considerable one if you're having to do it for multiple people). There's also the downside that a lot of lab notes will be for projects that were never finished - so reading them will get you partway to a breakthrough, but you'll have to either find others on the same subject or do original research yourself to finish them off (and you may not have a good idea of quite how much more is needed).

My talke would be that a lot of the significant breakthroughs that have been completed either have had the second round of research done on them to make them part of standard Hermetic magic without needing special access (e.g. the extension of Vim to the different realms) or are part of a mystery cult's secrets (which they'll guard jealously). A fair amount of the remainder probably won't be that useful (or it would have been shared more widely). There will still likely to be some useful tractatus describing Hermetic Virtues out there - but you'll have to do some digging to find them.