Linked triggers and mind reading

OK, hypothetical question.

I have an item with two effects in it that do stuff. They both rely on a third effect that reads the mind of the items user. If he thinks one thought, the item does one thing, if he thinks a different thought, it does something else.

The question is, would he need two seperate effects for the mind reading spell, one to read his mind for thought A and another to read his mind for thought B or would one mind reading spell to read for thoughts A and B be sufficient to trigger either of the two effects?

I'd say no, but it depends abit on how the InMe effect is designed.

I agree that the same mind-reading effect could be used to trigger both of the other two. I would note, however, that the mind-reading effect will have to be able to penetrate the magic resistance of the user.

That's true, however(to go over well traveled ground again), a magus can suppress his or her parma, activate the mind reading effect, then let his parma come back up as soon as he ceases concentrating. Parma doesn't dispel magic.

Perfectly true.

Still, I thought it was worth mentioning, as it can reduce the usefulness of the mental trigger. First, it makes the mental trigger slower for a magus, as he needs to suppress his magic resistance first, and then send the mental trigger. It takes a few moments to concentrate on suppressing you MR, and you actually need to think about it, which can be tricky in stressful situations.

Second, this means that the magus will be vulnerable every time he wants to trigger the effects.

Or course, the problem of magic resistance also applies to the effects triggered by the mind-reading effect, so this might not be an issue if those effects are supposed to affect the user. It is an issue, however, if the usual target of these effect is not the magus himself.

You meant that the other way round didn't you? It's a problem if the triggered effects target the magus.

I think you misunderstood Erik. His point was that you only need to suppress your Parma Magica while the mind reading spell is activated. That spell could then last however long it is set to last after your Parma Magica is no longer suppressed because Parma Magica does not dispel ongoing effects. Or, even easier, activate a D: Concentration (device maintains) or similar mind reading effect just before doing your Parma Magica ritual. Now the spell can keep reading your mind as normal and you can have your active magical defenses.

Chris

Actually, I am still talking about the usefulness of the mind-reading effect (effect A) to trigger another effect (effect B).

If the usual target of effect B is the magus, then he would have to lower his Parma anyway. So he concentrates to suppress it, thinks the trigger (which effect A picks up because no MR prevents it), and effect B is activated. If the trigger for effect B had been a word, he would still have had to lower his MR, otherwise it would block effect B.

But if the usual target of effect B is something or someone else (example: Pilum of Fire), then with a verbal trigger the magus does not have to lower his MR each time he wants to use it. Adding a mental trigger via effect A changes this, because the magus must lower his MR each time in order for effect A to pick up the trigger -- leaving him more vulnerable than when using a regular trigger such as a spoken phrase.

You are still misinterpreting Parma Magica as something that dispels. You do not need to lower it for each mental trigger, just one initial time to activate the mind reading effect. Look again at Erik's and my posts.

Chris

The effect only needs to feel the trigger. Like you would not need to use multiple spells amplify your sense of smell to be able to smell different things.

Single effect without doubt.

I'm getting around the whole penetration issue by sticking it in a talisman, specifically a sword. Put the ranges at personal and then have it work whenever the magus grips the hilt of the sword. Since you can hold the hilt of your sword with the off hand while it is scabbarded quite naturally, this would allow the weapon to cast a number of personal range effects without anyone noticing (assuming an inconspicuous sigil).

Ok, I think there is a divergence of the assumptions there. I wasn't thinking about any dispelling of the mind-reading effect by the Parma.

You assume that the mind-reading effect has a duration of Sun, a range of Touch, 2 uses per day, and an environmental trigger (sunrise/sunset). As a result, the first person picking it up that day is the target of the mind-reading effect until sunrise/sunset.

I was assuming a more active effect, allowing any person picking up the object to be able to issue a mental trigger. That would be Mom duration with Unlimited uses, an environment trigger to target the one touching the enchanted item.

My thinking was: What happens if the magus drops the object in the first case? Standard answer seems to be that the item would still be reading the magus' mind even from afar. This seems... counter-intuitive, so I think the effect would end (target no longer in range) until the object is picked up again (at which time a new target is acquired). In that case, the magus must lower his Parma before picking up the object, or else the mind-reading will be blocked. If the mind-reading power does not stop when you let go of the item, then you have a situation where, from anywhere in the world, you can now trigger the effect. This just doesn't make sense to me. And this raises the question of how far is Touch range. Is a scabbard still in Touch range? Or does it require skin contact?

Constant effect are fine for some effects, but I think that in this case it is rife with problematic situations. Which is why I was assuming the Unlimited uses on the person currently touching the enchanted item. Essentially, the item is repeatedly polling the person currently touching it to read its mind. Hence the need for a magus to lower his magic resistance in order to activate it.

Sorry for the confusion and rambling explanation. :stuck_out_tongue:

No, I'm not, and I made an explicit statement quite contrary to this. I am assuming a non-Momentary duration for accepted validity reasons (and because having to trigger that effect yourself would be worthless)...

What's the environmental trigger? If you search through the forums you'll find this is not generally accepted as a legitimate use of RAW. Of course it's fine in anyone's game if they want to play that way, but if we're talking about how these things work in RAW you'll be hard-pressed to show this is valid.

Thus my above suggestion of D: Concentration. You could have a D: Concentration effect maintained by the item. Give it a bunch of uses. You pick it up and it activates, then it stops when you release it. Rapid-firing momentary InMe effects are not needed to avoid the problem you have with the constant effect. Also, this makes dealing with warping much less of an issue than it is with a constant effect.

Chris

Sorry, you did in fact specify a D: Conc duration in an earlier post. I missed that. :blush:

Actually, you are right that this does not require an environmental trigger. Just a regular trigger which is "touching the device". There is nothing in RAW that forbids the combination of Unlimited uses and such a simple trigger, unless I missed something big (I don't think I did, but I could be wrong).

But my point is that such a D:Conc mind-reading power has its limits. It need to be something that you keep in contact with at all times, because if you stop touching it even for a moment, you'll have to lower your MR again to let it "re-target" you mind without being blocked. For a piece of clothing, a ring or a bracelet, this might do just fine. For a sword or a wand, the mind-reading effect to trigger other effect is is still problematic.

And that is all I was pointing out -- that using a mind-reading effect to trigger another effect needs to take MR into account in the way it is used.

Sorry, you did in fact specify a D: Conc duration in an earlier post. I missed that. :blush:

Actually, you are right that this does not require an environmental trigger. Just a regular trigger which is "touching the device". There is nothing in RAW that forbids the combination of Unlimited uses and such a simple trigger, unless I missed something big (I don't think I did, but I could be wrong).

But my point is that such a D:Conc mind-reading power has its limits. It need to be something that you keep in contact with at all times, because if you stop touching it even for a moment, you'll have to lower your MR again to let it "re-target" you mind without being blocked. For a piece of clothing, a ring or a bracelet, this might do just fine. For a sword or a wand, the mind-reading effect to trigger other effect is is still problematic.

And that is all I was pointing out -- that using a mind-reading effect to trigger another effect needs to take MR into account in the way it is used.

I will agree that this is sometimes counter intuitive (specifically when applied to non sense target intellego spells).
But, on the other hand, it is unambiguously the rules as written. If I have a range touch duration sun spell that turns a target into stone the target doesn't turn back when the caster stops touching it.
A range sight duration sun rego corpus spell isn't dispelled if the target is shrouded in darkness, likewise with the range touch intellego menetem.

Quick question : as the hermetic durations are clearly stated as environmental triggers, the unlimited use momentary duration InMe for constant mind reading effect is valid no ?

Where are hermetic durations clearly stated as environmental triggers? I'm pretty sure that's not stated anywhere. Special environmental events that cancel spell durations are certainly valid. (Note that it's the event that triggers both the device and the end of the duration, not the duration itself that triggers the device.) For example, phases of the moon and sunrise/sunset. But there is also a comment that these can only be "major magical features of the environment." So solstices and equinoxes should be just as valid. But there is no such termination for D: Momentary, D: Concentration, and D: Diameter, and certainly no "major magical feature" within the environment that does so. Let's take D: Diameter as an example. All spells with D: Diameter don't end at the same moment based on the environment. They end based upon when they were cast, each lasting about two minutes. That is very different from events such as sundown and sunrise that cancel all D: Sun effects.

This is why I said Momentary and Diameter triggers are not generally accepted, because a lot of people notice the lack of the "major magical feature." I expect I probably could say it more strongly, that they are generally not accepted, but my memory isn't accurate enough for me to have made the stronger statement.

Now let's look at linked triggers. While you might say you want to link the spell to itself so it rapid fires, you have two issues. One is that it's supposed to be "another effect," and that would be the same effect. The other is that there is a lack of clarity about whether this means it would fire off an infinite number of times in one moment and be done forever or if it would actually rapid fire as desired. Also, if it gets suppressed (not resisted) once, does that mean it never works again? Chaining two effects to link to each other to make an infinite loop bypasses the first issue but not the second. Finally, we have the statement "an effect to allow mental activation needs to be able to read surface thoughts continually," which definitely suggests you're not supposed to fire it off rapidly. So trying to use linked triggers for rapid firing, although better, is still questionable.

Chris

Well, it's stated p99 of the rulebook :

"Thus, it can respond to events that end spell durations"

As i am not well versed in Magical Theory i don't know what is ending a Momentary duration (1 round).

[EDIT]

Sorry, i see your point now, and i agree about the lack of major magical change.