With decent level spells giving bonuses, they should have a far better chance of survival than the average person.
Add to that better living conditions and better constant access to food etc and magi should even without spells already have a higher rate of survival than general population.
Why would you expect a larger part of magi to die than the average population? The opposite is clearly far more likely!
Some would die, by far the most would not.
The plauge was far from 100% lethal, and with magic to assist, only the least competent or most reclusive(without access to anyone to assist) would be likely to die from the plauge. And of those, the reclusive ones are less likely to get the plauge at all.
Fun.
We have played past that point, and since we use realistic physics and stuff as basis, the emerging "science revolutions" doesnt become a problem, so mostly its just smooth sailing into yet another century. And the times we have played that far, the plauge was severely reduced in impact, thanks to the existence of magi. Leading to a much less severe further history.
I have a different take. It comes down to if the Plague is a magical disease or not. If it is not, then it wouldn't take long for these Corpus specialist Magi to be able to cure it and find out how to stop it.
What that will bring is an interesting political problem. As now you have this disease or divine will or what not that is taking care of the mundane "problem", from the perspective of the more sociopathic Magi.
Would saving large amounts of people be considered interfering with the mundane? If the Order stops the plague what are the ramifications? Is the Order the guardians of mankind now? Or do many stand by and watch as citys crumble... what price their souls? Would be great to play!
"White Wolf" and "Wold of Darkness", the Ars Magica future as portrayed in an earlier edition by a different publisher. The timelines have diverged though, ArM5 cannot evolve into Mage.
Grated, so indead of a mortality rate of 2/3, theirs is only one-half. Somewhat better, but still devestating. What is the LC modifier for the plague rolling through town?
I did not mean to imply a higher mortality rate. It would be somewhat lower, but still pretty high. We are talking a 66% mortality rate for mundanes here! For magi, a MR of 40-50% is signifigantly lower, but also devestating. The better part of a generation. Not the whole order, just the youngest and weakest.
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Many would die, not just some. Still, I would say half or less, so technically yes, most will survive (50 to 60%).
And magi from crowded covenants are more likely to come in contact with the plague. Caught by surprise, they have only their Longevity to resist it (and young magi usually do not have Longevity at first). The plague, IMO, should be something massive and scary. It should be a 20 point penalty to your aging roll, or even worse. No, not 100% lethal. But it was 66% lethal. Maye even more, some areas saw a 75% mortality rate.
My concept is that magi are already part of history. Perhaps they are the reason the death rate was only 2/3 instead of 9/10? Anyway, I figure that just as the plague slowed the growth and development of Europe for nearly a century, it would have a similar impact on Hermetic magic. Some secrets become lost, others rediscovered, and things continue on as normal.
To develop a cure for the plague would take a season for the most powerful of mages (2-4 or more for weaker ones), time in which which the magi are studying it (thus exposed). This means that there is a good chance that many of those seeking to cure it are instead exposed.
More likely, magi would develop sight range InCo(an) spells to detect disease and quarintee any one approaching the covenant until they have been inspected at range to verify they are disease free. This measure could keep isolated covenants, completely secure from the plague. Those in towns are likely to be hit hard.
And remember, the big plague wasn't an era, it was only a year! 1348, the plague first hits Europe, and by 1349 it had run its course. Most everyone who was gonna die had died. By the time magi invent some way of dealing with it, it is done and over. Or, perhaps that is why it was over in a year. Eh? Subsequent outbreaks of plague are much smaller and localized, and have a much less devestating effect.
That may not be practical or even possible. There isn't any example of such a script in the published material and there is no way for a character to determine if a particular mystery cult lore will serve as an appropriate tool to develop a script for longevity focus without becoming deeply involved with a cult (a process that takes decades).
Not every mystery cult lore can develop scripts for a given virtue in fact in my opinion the situation is just the opposite, a given mystery cult lore can only ever be used to develop scripts for a handful of virtues.
I see them settling in whatever place will take in a wet behind the ears not quite apprentice and then barring disaster or personal antipathy the magus stays in his covenant for life. So we aren't talking about what covenant wants a longevity specialist, we're talking about what covenant wants a newb.
You'll notice that my example character wasn't age 90 they were 90 years out of apprenticeship. That's old, it just isn't the oldest character possible.
No magus reaches 90 years of hermetic age without making sure that they don't need to go out if they don't want to. The longevity specialists are not special in this regard. the fact that they have all they need provided for them does not make them unique. It makes them exactly the same as everyone else.
No they don't! Players have control at character creation characters don't. I'm giving my take on how good the best of the longevity rituals available to the order should be not on how one can minmax a character to create longevity rituals
Actually, the first thought I had when reading this was the political ramifications. Let's assume that this hypothetical uber-specialist exists. At some point there would have to be 'the first' such specialist to significantly impact the longevity of his or her 'customers'. I imagine that the Archmagi would have something to say about this. If (totally arbitrary) the average magus could expect to live to, say, 120 relying on his own arts, and then a specialist ('the first') prolongs this to, say, 180, the impact on the overall direction and the overall character of the order could well be at issue. If this specialist starts a kind of 'arms race', interested parties may well intervene. In much the same way copying a book too much will lessen it's value, so too the relative power of the Archmagi could be lessened by an arms race of longevity. And so I see that there is a strong interest among the Argmagi to reign in this person or at least 'manage' them.
Also, in thinking about it, what kind of character would specialize to that degree? I think a character that wants to consign themselves to this one issue is either totally selling out other more interesting propositions, or is genuinely interested in longevity to that degree. The problem is, it seems to me, that someone that interested is much more likely to embark on original research in the area than just maximize their stats for one particular lab activity.
Thus, I think if anyone were to bring up the argument in my game that 'such people must surely exist', I'll mention that there are surely people interested in longevity, but such people lead interesting lives and do not consign themselves to the role of 'factory worker'. And if any were greedy enough to suffer the monotony in service to their stats, the Argmagi probably had a word with him and as a result, they are not well known to be 'for hire'.
The +20 lab, however, I could definitely see. You could set it up as a spare in your covenant and then rent it out at a hefty fee. It's a desirable thing to have and doesn't take a lifetime to create (although did anyone calculate the upkeep for that thing? )
Actually, my character in Marko Markoto's game actually would specialize to the degree you are talking about for longevity. She wouldn't do it as a longevity specialist, but as a general CrCo Specialist. She is a holy maga focued on healing magics. Her current longevity potion is +9. Give her another 20 years of study until she is in her 60's and she will have one that is +13 to +15. Give her another 40 years until just after a 100 and she will easily be +20 probably. Considering the only time she can double botch is experimenting in the lab (with modifier of greater than lab safety), studying from Vis or casting ritual spells (from the vis usage), twilight is not very likely for her. (Magic and divine are favorable auras, fae doesn't add botch dice and infernal doesn't impact her casting at all)
She has the potential and drive to become one of these longevity experts (admitted, no affinity but she does have pussiant corpos). Her lab will be specialized to the maximum she can for Creo (to heal people and animals).
She gets to a +20 potion, then she is good until almost 200 years of age. What will happen with her creo/Co arts with another hundred years of advancement.
As for the plague: the first form kills in 4-8 days with 75-80% fatality. Second form kills in 2-4 days wtih 90-95% fatality. This is a mage killer unless you already have a healing adept with something like +20 - +25 to recovery rolls spells.
Don't forget, the true cap of a Longevity Ritual is your Magic Theory, as it limits how much vis you may use (and if I recall, the minimum is 1 pawn for every five years of age). So at age 56-60, you need Magic Theory 12 if you are planning to "rebrew" your potion.
Yep yep, I miscalculated. At age 60 you need 12 pawns, thus a minimum MT of 6. So that is not so bad. You need MT 10 at age 100 and so on. So when you reach advanced levels of age and need to rebrew, that is when the MT cap starts to limit you.
RIght, so you get magic theory 11, you are covered for a new +20 potion at age 100-110 which lasts you until age 200 or more. Then again, at age 100, your magic theory might be 15 or 16. which means you can brew new potion at 150-160.
Well, that's 90-100 years of Aging Rolls... It's actually quite likely that you will roll something like a 20+ on the stress die on one of these and suffer a Crisis (thereby losing the LR). There are no guarantees!
Sounds a bit much to me... Magic Theory 16 is 680 XP. Even if you start learning it from the age of 5, that's still an average of 7 XP per year. Given the probable rarity of Magic Theory books beyond a certain level, this looks pretty much unattainable.
I reckon, as Mark says, that beyond a certain point the LR not only becomes prohibitively expensive in terms of vis, but the Magic Theory requirement becomes impossible to satisfy.
Dont forget that the historical moratilty rate includes common negative influences like malnutrition, or more commonly, unbalanced nutrition and lack of good care. Nobility and the rich had considerably lower mortality rates.
And magi adds spells to the formula. I would say 1/3 or less.
And like the rich and famous historically, i would expect fewer of them to catch it. So the number of dead magi will perhaps be less than 1/10 of the total. Possibly a lot less still.
Ah, ok. Thank you for the explanation. Not familiar with them.
Not really. The most common, bubonic plauge is described as at THAT time to have had between 30 and 75% mortality rate.
Bubonic plauge today has a 1-15% mortality rate if treated and 40-60% if untreated.
Research has shown that(probably) the highend mortality rates were mostly the result of additional diseases being present as well. Which again is something unlikely to be a problem for magi.
Euro-wide the total number of dead is estimated as 45-50% of total population, depending on country however(where known) it ranges from below 15% to above 75%.
In the middle east however the estimate is less than 1/3.
So again, magi will have better living conditions, probably ALOT better than most mundanes, including nobility and the rich, which means they will have a far lower chance of contracting it, are much more likely to be in good shape, are more likely to get decent mundane medical help...
And above all else, can cast, or have someone else cast some serious spells at them to improve chances.
Oh it will certainly be that regardless!
And some areas saw 30% mortality rates. Even possibly a little lower in some places.
Wrong, they´re exactly the same as everyone else who has something more desirable than average that they can trade favours for.
And that does make a difference.
Someone who himself wants to live as close to forever as possible would be a good candidate.
Or someone simply obsessed with it for no real reason.
I think both would happen, depending on the person. Exact motivation and type of personality.
As a way to pay for and possibly also further their own research, some probably would.
The upkeep is actually surprisingly low.
Nothing bothersome at least.
And yeah, last campaign we ran, the covenant had a whole bunch of extra, highly specialised labs, it pays off quite well.
Lets see upkeep score for that, +2 or a skilled craftsman, +4, +4, and then a total of -5. So at worst 15 pounds instead of 1, 6 pounds if you can have a superior craftsman supply the Superior equipment. And if you switch the Greater Expansion to another Greater Feature you only get -1 to the total specialisation, though with general quality 2 points lower, but that probably doesnt matter anyway here since its not supposed to be anything but for specialised work, anyway doing so actually means you get a lab using Priceless ingredients at LESS cost than a regular lab, 0.7 pounds per year.
If you really want to skimp on expenses, you can skip the priceless ingredients by taking a -2 GQ reduction and in this case a dreadful -4 to LR(only acceptable if its for a lab specialised in something else in my opinion and barely even then) resulting in an amazingly cheap lab costing a mere 0.1 pound per year. If you also have the needed craftsman, you can actually get the lab upkeep score negative.
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