longevity ritual numbers

Games Discussion Ars Magica
41

Any magus of that age has abilities that will be of use to any other magus who doesn't share their focus, even generalists will be able to create fantastic requisite heavy magics beyond the abilities of others. It would take real perverse dedication to study for that long and not have treasures beyond the abilities of your fellows. The longevity specialists are not special in this regard.

Also the reason that they don't need to leave if they don't wish to is not their wealth, it's the byproduct of a century of being a magus and seeing to their own needs.

42

Ah, a new LR topic! (for me) :smiley:

I think SGs and the authors of supplements should build in some 200+ years old magi and not killing all of them around the age of 160. Those old magi's existence is logical with the current rules even from Erik's point of view.
That's all.

The plague could hit unaware magi because the second type of pestilence had sometimes no signs. If they have a healing spell known by someone they can survive but if not it will be too late to search a healer magus within hours or days.
Anyway the small medieval ice age started in the 14th century so if not the plague than the hunger kills the people. See the great famine 1315-17.
Also do remember there were smaller pestilences thereafter in every 10-15 years.

Plagues, heretic movements, inquisition, peasant revolts, hundred years' war, Ottoman conquest, Avignon papacy, country unifications, renaissance, plate mails, gunpowder, it was a dangerous and rich era worth playing.

43

Is it? Or is it Creo, Corpus, and Vim? I think this is a very valid question. If you look at the specifics of the longevity ritual, it is not done over the season. In fact, it is a very short ritual, one that can be repeated in little time. It is a "ritual" that uses a "lab text." If we fall on the side of "ritual," then Magic Theory is not the cap. If we fall on the side of "lab text," then Magic Theory is the cap.

Magic Theory x2.

Chris

44

Longevity rituals are a lab activity, and as such, are restricted to MT*2. See p.101Am, "The Longevity ritual takes one season to develop and perform, and the subject of the ritual must be present for the whole of that season. If appropriate, he may help the magnus creating the ritual with his lab work."
The easiest solution is a minor breakthrough to allow the second application of Verditius Elder Runes to apply to all lab activities. Easy, clean, and reinforces House Verditius's "You need us, don't tread on us" field effect.

45

MT is more important in the case if a LR is made for an old magus. You can get high lab total more easily than high MR - simply with cooperation.

Say your magus is 200 years old and his LR has broken. He need someone with MT of 20 to remake his LR. The lab text of the LR may have any magnitude if there is nobody to cast it again.

46

Unfortunately, what you're quoting is very selective quoting that hides the issue. (Not saying you did this intentionally.) Make sure you include the specifics about performing it, too. Develop + Perform = 1 season. Perform = effectively no time (on the seasonal scale). Therefore Develop = 1 season (minus a few hours).

Now, developing Chirurgeon's Healing Touch might take me 1 season. Afterwards I can perform the ritual in effectively no time (on the seasonal scale). Does this mean the vis spent on the ritual is limited by Magic Theory? If I want to invent a better healing spell, I'll have to spend a season or more again, then I can perform that one in little time.

I'm asking for an argument that shows the longevity ritual (as performed) is clearly different than other rituals. I am pretty sure it was left ambiguous. As I showed above, you cannot make this argument off of time. It really comes down to "ritual" versus "laboratory text." Although I personally favor using the 2x Magic Theory limit, but I also know after lots of searching that I am still unable to make this conclusion logically, that I cannot make a solid argument against the other case.

Chris

47

It's the fact that longevity ritual is listed as a lab activity, in chapter eight, Laboratory (P.94 AM) that ends the argument in my mind. It is different because the Core Book says it is, just like Familiars are a lab activity. If there were any rituals that required a lab total, they would also be bound by MT*2. The language may be throwing you off. the longevity ritual is not a ritual spell. If it were, it would be instant (no more annual warping!) or it would have a duration of one year (My God, how desperate mages would be for vis!).

48

The only worthly argument I know: what is better for the game?
I think the limit is good.

49

Not to be too snide, but if I accept this reasoning then I must also accept that using an enchanted device is a lab activity as well. Using an enchanted device is listed within the subsection on the laboratory activity of making enchanted devices. Similarly, there are statements about the use of a longevity ritual separate from its development. With a longevity ritual you spend the season developing it and then you perform a short "final ritual." That ritual is not being performed over the season.

So, while this may end the argument for some, it only does so without deductive reasoning. This is where you an I disagree. We both say MTx2. But I admit I've made the decision because there is ambiguity. Meanwhile when I ask for a logical reason you keep giving me arguments that fail logical tests.

No, the language isn't throwing me off. I can find other examples with the word "ritual" that are clearly lab activities. However, in this case there is an absolutely clear distinction between the development of the ritual and the "final ritual." In those other cases the actual laboratory activity is what is known as "_ ritual _" (insert various stuff in place of the underscores). In this case the development is clearly a lab activity. But is the "final ritual"? As the "final ritual" is where the vis is spent, you cannot make any valid argument about what caps the vis without separating the "final ritual" from its development and arguing that the "final ritual" itself is also a lab activity.

Chris

50

You are not reading the text then. The text clearly states "The Longevity Ritual takes one season to develop and perform". Later it states "A longevity Ritual's effect lasts until you suffer an aging crisis". In this case, you can "use the lab text" to recreate the "old ritual". "This involves simply making a new investment of vis (of an amount based on your current age) but no significant investment in time." So by canon, MT*2 is the limit for the first time, when the "ritual" is developed and performed, probably by someone better at it then you, with you helping. So long as you are happy with the power of the "ritual", then you can repeat as desired, without involving MT at all.

51

Please don't start that. I think I have shown fairly well I'm reading it quite thoroughly. Are you aware of this next quote?

It also clearly states "The Laboratory Text for a Longevity Ritual only allows the magus to reproduce the final ritual" afterward. Now let's remember that when reading your next part.

So, let's put these together. You are only reproducing the final ritual. Also, what you are doing is making the investment of vis and a minimal amount of time. Thus the final ritual is when the investment of vis occurs and only takes a minimal amount of time.

Of course, the later use of the word "process" doesn't help the confusion, but it does nothing either way as part of the argument.

This confuses me:

First, "so" is the incorrect word since you still have not demonstrated one implies the other, which also means you haven't proven this is canon.

But the part that confuses me is the end. You're now saying the "final ritual" is not capped by Magic Theory x2 if you do it later but it is the first time? I thought you were arguing the "final ritual" is a laboratory activity which would mean it is always capped by Magic Theory x2. Now you're describing it more like Chirurgeon's Healing Touch but being inconsistent.

It is clear that when you use the lab text you are "reproduc[ing] the final ritual" and nothing else, and that that completely puts the magical effect in place. So on one hand you consider that a laboratory activity and on the other hand you don't? And you're trying to prove to me it's one of them?

Chris

52

I think it's pretty clear that the first time, the Longevity ritual takes one season to perform. That's canon. Following times, it just takes the lab text and vis. That's canon. I think the reasoning is clear, but meta game. The "ritual" is treated as something between an item creation and a ritual. This gives you a story, making the "Longevity ritual", without making you redo the story multiple boring times and controlling who gets a "Longevity ritual", because the lab text cannot be shared, like an actual ritual can be. This is why Longevity rituals are a singular listing in chapter eight. Because they are in chapter eight, they are limited to MT2 the first time, when it is a lab activity, producing a lab text, as all the activities in chapter eight are limited to MT2. Chapter eight can produce effects that are not lab effects in the end, such as ritual spells, magic items, and recreations of Longevity rituals. These secondary effects are not limited by MT*2, and the text is pretty clear what the secondary effects are.

53

If you want an "in game" reason, think of it this way. To do something in Ars Magica of a magical nature requires either a roll, with the possibility of a botch (quite a limitation, I think we agree) or it's a lab activity (no roll, but limited by MT2). I can't think of any exceptions. I can't read even a possibility of a roll and botch with a Longevity Ritual, and so by default it's covered by MT2. Seems pretty binary, can you think of any exceptions?

54

Sorry but you´re the one not reading even what you´re writing yourself.

In this case, you can "use the lab text" to recreate the "old ritual". "This involves simply making a new investment of vis (of an amount based on your current age) but no significant investment in time."
This rather strongly supports that it is "a ritual", ie not limited by seasonal, because then remaking it should take another season.
Meaning you´re coming about as close to disproving yourself as i expect we can get in this.

And again, this doesnt say anything about how long the parts included take.
But based on the previous, the "perform" part takes "no significant amount of time". Meaning i will probably have to side with not including the cap.

55

I though I had already covered this, but again, if it's a ritual, it lasts a year. Anyone here want to argue that Longevity rituals last one year, no longer?

56

I notice you didn't even comment about the final ritual quote and how it applies.

No, it's absolutely not either one. It says "develop and perform," not just "perform."

A+B=1 does not imply B=1.

If that's not clear, then I cannot continue this conversation. I'll just ask you to take some math or logic courses.

No, they aren't all limited that way. Only vis being spent in the laboratory during the season is limited that way. While in many cases this is a triviality, sometimes it is not trivial. MT2 does not limit extracting vis nor does it limit vis transfer since you're not spending or "using" the vis in either case, but those are beside the point. More to the point, when inventing ritual spells such as Chirurgeon's Healing Touch (Yes, "inventing spells" has its own listing in chapter 8.) you aren't limited to MT2 the first time you use the ritual.

However, none of those other secondary effects require a lab text to perform them, which is still the strongest case that has been made for it being a laboratory activity. But then it would always be a laboratory activity, just a short one when it's being redone.

Chris

57

There are rituals that last more than a year.

Chris

58

And you're questioning how well I've read? How many examples do you want?

ArM5: Simple die rolls don't have botch dice.
ArM5: Spell Mastery can eliminate the possibility of a botch even on a stress die.
ArM5: (Best example.) Spontaneous magic without fatigue uses neither a roll nor botch dice.

Shall I go on?

Chris

59

There is absolutely nothing saying that anywhere. Or AFAIK anything even remotely implying it either.

Of course, you´re at the same time claiming that the 19 year duration from Ancient Magic is impossible.
Sorry, bad call.

60

Callen, yes, there are bloodline spells and there are instant ritual spells. It's not a bloodline spell and it's not an instant spell (if it were, it wouldn't cause continuing warping and couldn't "break").

Callen, it's not A+B = 1. It's one season = Longevity ritual + unique lab text, and this is not reversible as a logic statement is (1 = A+B which is equal to A = 1-B). With the season you get a lab text you can use to "dodge the work" but the work has to have been done.

They (the lab activities) are limited that way. MT2 will always equal or exceed zero, it's true. And if you managed to use viz in the creation of the ritual spells, that would be limited by MT2.

Yes, it would be a lab activity, except AM(p. 101) says it is not. Notice it does not say the spell must be repeated, rather "the focus must be repeated". What does "focus" mean in this context? The second paragraph of the Longevity ritual section explains "The Longevity Ritual creates a magical anchor, sustaining the vital life force of the magus, often by directly affecting the tissues of the magus's body. This anchor, however, prevents the magus from expending his life force in normal human fashion, so the magnus becomes permanently sterile. The ritual takes a season, and culminates in some sort of focus, which is appropriate to the magus in question. (Stuff, stuff, stuff.) The focus is always something which can be repeated, and does not require continuing actions or the possession of an object." This says to me that the "Longevity ritual" "enchants" the body much like enchanting a magic item. The anchor is permanent, and the sterility is permanent. Thus, the first season is a lab activity. But, perhaps, to an error in the Order's understanding of magic, the Longevity ritual is imperfect and the body can become detached, causing you to begin aging again (but not, note, become fertile again, for the anchor still exists within the magus). Attaching the body of the magus back to the anchor is a simple matter, requiring only the lab text of the original enchantment and vis. This is not a lab activity unless you wish to wish to improve the enchantment. That would require a season in the lab, and the creation of a new anchor. Ritual, I think, was a poor choice of words. This is something singular, which is why it gets it's own section. Given how the game has gone, I would call it the Longevity mystery, which I think, is closest to what is going on.