longevity ritual numbers

Games Discussion Ars Magica
61

There are other rituals that last more than a year. There are also rituals that last less than a year. Remember, your point was that if it is a ritual like a spell it must last one year. We agree that your statement was false.

Read very carefully this time:

1 season = time to (develop longevity ritual + unique lab text + perform longevity ritual)

The whole point is that you need to show that both parts are lab activities, not just one part. Yet you go lumping them together, hiding what you need to examine. Notice just what you quoted later "it culminates in some sort of focus." You don't do the focus (aka final ritual, focal ritual) all through the season.

The whole point is that everything written here and later suggests the performance of the longevity ritual is known as the focus or final ritual or focal ritual. Everything within and afterward also suggests this focus happens after developing the ritual. Thus you get

1 season = time to (develop longevity ritual + unique lab text) + time to (perform longevity ritual)

Which means you must show that the final ritual is part of the lab activity and not the application of the development.

Ah, you are finally starting to get it! The "focus" is also referred to as the "final ritual." I've been talking about this for a while (see above). It's also referred to as the "focal ritual." The point is that that seems to be when the vis is spent, not during the season of lab research. As such, the question remains about whether the "final ritual" or "focus" or "focal ritual" is a lab activity or not.

How do you get "back" in there? That is the question. If your sentences were to read

"Attaching the body of the magus to the anchor is a simple matter, requiring only the lab text of the original enchantment and vis. This is not a lab activity unless you wish to wish to improve the enchantment."

then we would be following exactly the same set of rules as are presented, but then the "final ritual" or "focus" would not be a lab activity the first time around.

For you to make your case, you need to show that the following does not follow the rules:

  1. Spend a season developing the longevity ritual and writing a lab text.
  2. At the end of the season perform a focal ritual, spending the necessary vis.
  3. Repeat part 2 as necessary later.

If you cannot find the rule violation there, you cannot make your case. This is why I base my decision on the need for a lab text.

Chris

62

You are ignoring the anchor. The first time it takes a season because you create the anchor and a "focus ritual" to connect the body to the anchor. The creation of the anchor is the seasonal activity limited by MT*2.

63

In the form of your formula, One season = anchor + unique lab text + focus ritual.

64

No, I'm not ignoring it. I'm just not making an assumption that the vis is spent on making the anchor. After all, we certainly know of other magical things that can be created that do not need vis. If that is the assumption that you've inserted on your own, then we know where the problem is.

Please show me how that list does not follow the rules.

Chris

65

Please note that is absolutely not in the form of my formula. I am much more careful with my formulas than that.

Chris

66

What magical things can be created in the lab that don't need vis?

67

How about charged items? That's the main thing that comes to mind.

You can attune a talisman (opening an item requires vis). That creates a permanent arcane connection and some other stuff. In this case there was already vis in the thing, but you have taken nothing from that vis; the original vis still serves its purpose. All the magical linkages have been created without using vis.

As I didn't specify "in the lab," though I had lab examples in mind, there are also unlimited duration circle spells for an example of something unending created via magic without vis.

Chris

68

Charged items are not permanent, and are a special case with their own section. Talismans are already magic items, and are a special case with their own section. Circle spells do not create anything, let alone without vis.
Longevity rituals are a special case with their own section. Hopping from special case to special case is not a good way to build a pattern.

69

Oh, that is funny!!! I'm not the one doing that. You're the one who is saying that because the longevity ritual is in its own section in the lab chapter it must behave as some sections in the lab chapter and not as other sections in the lab chapter. I'm the one who has said it's listed as a special case and there is no clear pattern that it seems to follow. You're the one who keeps arguing there is a clear pattern, even when I show you case after case (This is why I've shown the special cases as well as others.) that violates something you say is a clear pattern. I'm glad we've agreed that the way you're going about this is not a good way.

Now, is there anything in that list I wrote that violates the rules? You still haven't found anything.

Chris

70

It is clear. Your failing is that you are trying to form a logic structure when you should be building an outline. Like this.

Chapter eight : Lab activities (MT*2, Lab texts, help in lab, distractions from lab)

  1. General rules
    A. Vis (exceptions to 1)
    B. Magic enchantments (Shape and Material and similar spell bonus apply to all and go here)
    1. invested items (exceptions to B)
    2. lesser enchantments (exceptions to B)
    3. charged items (exceptions to B)
    4. Talismans (exceptions to B)
      C. Longevity Rituals (exceptions to 1)
      D. Familiars (exceptions to 1)
      Chapter nine : spells

The Longevity Ritual is a Lab activity and as such follows 1. General rules unless an exception is mentioned in section C. There is such and exception, unlike other lab activities, the vis cost is not lab total divided by ten, rather it is one for ever 5 years of age. No exception to MT*2 is given at this, or any other section. You have brought up examples from Chapter nine, spells, which do not apply to Chapter eight.

71

quote="Saxonous"]It is clear. Your failing is that you are trying to form a logic structure
[/quote]

You're the one trying to build the logical structure. I have said from the beginning there isn't one, that things are ambiguous. I have only used logic to show many statements that you have made are incorrect.

If there is no logical structure to the longevity ritual rules, then you can make no argument that the list I made is at all incorrect. So, do you want to continue trying to establish a logical structure?

Right 0<=MT*2 while creating the anchor in the list I made. I have not violated that rule on the list. Remember, it doesn't state for what part the vis cost is paid, though there is an indication that it is probably during the focus ritual.

It doesn't say the focus ritual is a lab activity. Even you admit this. If it's not a lab activity, then MT2 doesn't apply. It also doesn't say the focus ritual is not a lab activity. If it is a lab activity, then MT2 does apply. The problem is that it suggests both for the focus ritual but states neither.

So, I ask again, can you find any way the list I wrote violates the rules?

Oh, and there are several exceptions to the MT*2 rule, too, but they ones I can think of are in other books. Anyway, that's beside the point.

Chris

72

How about asking David Chart? It seems to me this issue is sufficiently unclear and has generated enough controversy to deserve a clarification in the errata. I would phrase the question in the following way:

  1. Can one spend more than (Magic Theory * 2) pawns of vis when first creating a longevity potion?

  2. Can one spend more than (Magic Theory * 2) pawns of vis when rebrewing a longevity potion from a lab text?

73
  1. No, as you have the normal Vis limits for a Lab Activity.
  2. Yes, because rebrewing is not actually a lab activity (it does not require a season). It is more akin to re-casting the ritual you invented previously. It specifically states this in TMRE concerning Alchemy and the Elizir.
74

Neither does transferring vis require a season if that is the guideline. And what activity (other than copying) that is not a lab activity uses a lab text?

I'll read up on that. That could be helpful.

Chris

PS: Yes, I'm in favor of asking David. I think we've seen at least two common thoughts: always limited by MTx2 and first by MTx2 then by Arts. Offline I've seen two: always limited by MTx2 and always limited by Arts. This does indicate there is confusion about what was intended.

75

You could spend differing sorts of vis, making the MT more a problem than the seperate arts.

76

In this entire discussion I have heard no mention of the group which is most likely to produce such an expert: The Order of the Green Cockerel. Using the various virtues initiated by this cult, a magi could SIGNIFICANTLY improve his or her longevity rituals, and those of others. Even the first few steps on this path can grant significant bonuses.

77

True, but specific mystery cults outside of the Exoteric houses aren't standard in the setting, the Green Cockerel are only in a game if the SG has need of them, not by default.

78

Or if a PC magi decides to peruse the mystery. If I recall correctly my Mysteries, the OGC is fairly well known. The rest of the order may not know what they DO, but they likely know they exist.

My only point is that if you are calculating who the best longevity-potion makers in the order are, neglecting the OGC is ignoring a major collection of exactly that type of magi.

79

Perhaps the reference should be to Alchemy, not the Green Cockrel. They don't exist in every saga. I have alchemy in my game, but coming from a totally different source. A man named Gerber :wink:.

80

Do it. But only the second question.