Why only the second question when sending both is as easy and since no one has shown the first to be true?
Chris
The first is obvious. Someone answered it earlier.
You can use MT*2 for a lab process per season and no more.
No, it's not obvious. In fact, it cannot be shown. It was not shown earlier. I've asked for someone to show how the list I wrote violated the rules, and no one has been able to do so for good reason.
Yes, but it has not been shown whether the expenditure is during the lab process, during the final ritual, or split between them. If the final ritual is not a lab process (which is the point of the second question), then we do not have an answer to the first question.
Chris
TMRE page 42 on recastint the Longevity ritual:
The limits on the vis handling for
this process are those of a magus casting
a ritual: Art specific vis is used, limited for
each Art by the magus’s Art score.
Thus, if the magus obtained a
Longevity Ritual formula from a specialist
potion brewer, with a bonus set to last
him several centuries (in principle), he
can rebrew replacement doses for himself
without needing to spend his whole
life studying Magic Theory.
Yay! Our hero! Both questions are answered in that later book. Perhaps someone had already realized the questions would arise.
Chris
Marko mentioned TMRE earlier already. I just searched the page.
[engage Sarcasm]
But wait! According to Mr. Tyrrel, the Mysteries, and the OGC / Alchemy are not in every game (I believe his words were "Not part of the standard setting"), therefor we should not consider them here. The rules relating to vis use are listed in TMRE and are therefore OPTIONAL and not to be considered in this discussion.
[/sarcasm]
TMRE has many optional rules, but that isn't one of them. That is a clarification of existing rules. Inventing the Longevity Ritual requires a Season, and thus the rule of MTx2 applies to vis use. Rebrewing does not take up a whole season, as it is merely a recasting of the spell. It is right there in the core RAW. Since it is casting a spell, the vis limit is based on your Arts.
Ehm... That doesnt make sense unfortunately...
If redoing it is what uses up the Vis, then that part is what should use the Vis the first time as well, otherwise its not the ritual itself but the inventing that requires the Vis. Which means redoing it should then not require any Vis. 
Its a Ritual. All ritual spells require vis.
Marko, that's just the problem, that violates the TMRE rules when combined with the ArM5 rules.
Based on TMRE, the focus ritual is not a Ritual (capitalized to indicated vis-using rituals) the first time. It is a Ritual the second and later times. That is what is inconsistent about the rules and causes the confusion. Things would have been a lot clearer if it had been written that you had to spend X vis making the anchor during the season and then at the end of the season and at any later time you spend Y vis to do the focus ritual.
Chris
It certainly requires vis, as the book clearly states. Ritual spell is never stated though, and seems an dangerous precedent. What's the lab total? What arts? Mercurian magic discount? Can't be done by an unstructured caster? What would a botch look like?
I think of the Longevity Ritual as a very common mystery, and I think the rules support that. At that point, sacrificing the vis to reactivate the Longevity Ritual is a perk of the mystery, with no precedent being made, for it, like other mysteries, does something our imperfect Magic Theory does yet allow.
Yes but then inventing the ritual has to cost twice the Vis, once for inventing and once for performing to fall under MT limit rules, that was exactly the point.
The rules as far as i know them doesnt support it, but i think stating it as a FORMER mystery since integrated into MT is quite likely.
That still doesnt determine wether its a ritual or not nor does it clear up the troublesome question at hand.
Except its clearly already a part of MT or all magi wouldnt automatically know about it.
Eh, same as always?
No IIRC its stated as a ritual without further "embellishment".
The problem is that the book(s) doesnt clearly state anything in this case.
Right. "Ritual" is not the same as "Ritual spell". To amplify the point, there is no botch roll, and Ritual spells always use a stress die (P81 AM). Ritual spells also all Arts Liberales and Philosophie, which are never mentioned in the Longevity section (P101 AM). And, of course, the incomplete list of virtues and flaws which apply to ritual spells but don't apply to the Longevity Ritual. Also vis spent on a ritual spell adds +2 to the casting total. Vis spent of the Longevity Ritual adds +1.
"A Longevity Ritual is a very personal creation, and as such, it is uniquely tied to your magical abilities. You may, with the approval of the troupe or storyguide, substitute any type of vis that your magical talents are strongly associated with"(P101 AM). So are the arts being used Creo and Corpus always, or are they the default arts? If it's a ritual spell, the vis used must correspond to the vis used, and the max used is based on the score in the art being used.
The book does clearly state. The Longevity Ritual section is well written and clear. The only confusion is from people who have blurred "Ritual" with "Ritual Spell". It may be a problem, but it is not the book's problem.
Open your eyes, callen alone has explained it any number of times by now, very well and thorough both several times.
NO THE BOOK ISNT CLEAR.
What the book DOES say is that the ritual takes a season culminating in "some sort of focus" commonly a potion.
Its also very clearly stated that "~...and the focus must be repeated. You can invent a new ritual...~..., or perform the ritual from the old ritual again. This involves simply making a new investment of vis...~... but no significant investment in time. You must have the Laboratory Text from the original ritual to do this...~"...
Read, THINK and please understand what we are saying.
Because clearly the vis is used by the "focus" part, which is "no significant investment in time" implying that the MT limit isnt there since it matters for the part that is a season(and if the season part was what used the Vis, then the focus wouldnt use any vis), while the text from TMRE contradicts this.
The book is clear. The Longevity Ritual takes a season the first time and anytime it is improved. It is a lab activity, and lab activities are limited to MT2 unless given an exception, which the Longevity Ritual is not. It's a very clear and easy to follow formula. You can fixate on the "focus" part all you want. There are special rules given for the focus part, ie, it can be redone without a season of lab work. No exception is given for MT2, so there isn't one. Some are trying to work around that by implying that the "focus" is a ritual spell, without, I notice, the terrible consequences that would have, and I have pointed out. There are rules for doing more then one thing in a season. There is no mention of them in the Longevity Ritual section. Anchor and Focus take a season, as the book clearly states. Insofar as you cannot make a Focus without an Anchor, and cannot make an Anchor without a Focus, the argument that the Focus part of the Longevity Ritual is weak. Note that there are no rules for making a new Focus without a season spent making an Anchor. It is an unitary activity. Performing the "ritual" again creates nothing, and no changes are allowed or possible. All it does is reconnect the Anchor to the Focus. This is not allowed anywhere else that I am aware of, it's a special rule for Longevity Rituals.
Following that reasoning the follow-up focus rituals are laboratory activities and limited by Magic Theory. Ooops! That changes when an exception is made when TMRE is published, but not before.
What you need to understand is that the original rules are ambiguous. TMRE replaced ambiguity with contradiction. However, at least it's contradiction with a clear application to what matters. Here is the contradiction:
- The follow-up work is only the focus ritual. (explicit ArM5)
- The follow-up work uses vis. (explicit ArM5)
- Thus the focus ritual uses vis.
- This vis is limited by Arts. (explicit TMRE)
- Thus the focus ritual uses Vis limited by Arts. This contradicts the first use of the focus ritual in TMRE.
Here is the ambiguity in the ArM5 rules. Both of these do not violate a single rule in ArM5:
A) Creating an anchor is a lab activity that takes a season and allows you to do a focus ritual afterward. The focus ritual performed at the end of the season and later focus rituals are not lab activities so the Vis is limited by Arts.
or
B) Both creating an anchor and performing the focus ritual are lab activities, even though the focus ritual is a short one. Thus the Vis is always limited by Magic Theory.
I find it interesting that prior to TMRE your interpretation actually violated the rules (see the contradiction above). Meanwhile both of the above two options work. You claim "it's a very clear and easy to follow formula," but you broke the rules while trying to follow them.
Now that we have the TMRE rules, we should address the question of what they are. Are they clarifications or corrections? If they are clarifications, then the rules are contradictory and following the rules will necessarily break the rules, too. If they are corrections, then there should be something in the ArM5 errata because you should not have to buy another book to find out there is a mistake in the first book.
So, stop making comments about us having to read better or the rules being clear. Next time make sure you're not breaking the rules you say are clear or that we haven't read well enough. But if you still insist, the challenge stands: find a way (A), or my preferred (B) for that matter, above breaks the rules in ArM5. You've been asked to do this before and have been unable to do so.
Chris
That wasn't my problem. My problem with it did not stem from that. It just made things vaguer. But I thought the follow-up focus ritual should be a lab activity. But now that we have TMRE, I'd like to quote for you part of the contradiction I mentioned above:
"When rebrewing the Longevity Ritual... it takes about 15 minutes per magnitude of the Lab Text of the Longevity Ritual, as if casting a ritual spell. The limits on the vis handling for this process are those of a magus casting a ritual: Art specific vis is used, limited for each Art by the magus's Art score."
Notice that in order for them to get to the method you use they equated the focus ritual to a ritual spell in several ways. So TMRE is essentially saying you blurred the difference. But that blurring is what is supposed to happen now. Sometimes the focus ritual is treated as part of a lab activity, sometimes it is treated as a ritual spell.
Yet you allowed this behavior. (Notice the part in the quote above about the Vis when "casting a ritual") I'm the one who preferred the interpretation that the focus ritual is a lab activity. I still feel my interpretation (B) of the original ArM5 rules not only obeys the ArM5 rules but also avoids most of these messy spots.
Chris
No, the focus "ritual" would be a lab activity, except "you can perform the ritual for the old ritual again. This involves simply making a new investment of vis (of an amount based on your current age) but no significant investment in time. You must have the Laboratory text to do this, and this is the only benefit from a Longevity Ritual's Laboratory Text." (P101 AM). This is a special case clearly explained in the base book, in the Longevity Ritual section. It is something that doesn't follow all the lab rules, which is why it has it's own section, to explain the exceptions. MT*2 is not a given exception. A "ritual" that takes no casting roll or lab time is.
Your reference to TMRE is I assume to page 42. I think your problem is that the you misunderstand the "follow up work". It is no contradiction. The rules for the Anchor and Focus season are different from the rules for the "follow up". Which is even covered by TMREP42. "Thus, if the magus obtained a Longevity Ritual formula from a a specialist potion brewer, with a bonus set to last him several centuries, (in principle), he can rebrew replacement doses for himself without needing to spend his whole life studying Magic Theory." Seems obvious that Magic Theory is used the first time, and Arts for the follow up, just as the text says, TMREP42. Pretty black and white.
You seem to absolutely insist on forgetting that the follow-up procedure is explicitly the same as the original focus ritual according to ArM5. This completely invalidates almost everything you just wrote.
Chris